Live data from Hacker News

S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

sfchronicle.com

191–200 of 222 posts

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yet this part of their statement is still true, let's focus on solving 70% of the problem and then we can debate the rest > This has little to do with the availability of housing, or the cost of housing. Some people will simply refuse to live in the housing that is provided. Many are so mentally ill and addicted to drugs that no amount of money we give them, either directly or indirectly, will get them off the street…

I agree. Most people who are homeless at any given time are not homeless due to chronic drug abuse.

People that choose to make a lifestyle of it should be dealt with forcefully. And no I'm not saying to beat them up although I'm not against rounding them up and dropping them in the wilderness just like a racoon. It's not a permanent solution but deters the lifestyle and is much cheaper than rehabilitating people that don't want it.

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most homeless are effectively hiding from you. The ones you see are the ones who don't care about being seen, the mental/addicted.

Truth be told those are the only ones people complain about. If SF was filled to the brim with disguised homeless nobody would care.

Which is why

> If that doesn't work, then they become a ward of the state and treated as a child.

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet the conservatives' elected leader, Donald Trump, is banned from Twitter because he's unable to stop publicly obsessing over violence.

Trump was banned from Twitter because the people running it absolutely hated him and everything he stood for, and being on his way out of office they figured it was time to make the move that they had been wanting to make for years.

I am not sure if I consider Trump's behavior breaking the Terms of Services that we _all_ need to follow, but he walked up to that line closer and closer, and got bit. However, 2 others, Senator Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley said way more damning things than Trump, on paper, the same days, on the same topic, and they got no penalty.

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citizenship is a totally separate topic.

I agree. But you are claiming that the number of years having domicile in a location is an entitlement despite not being able to afford cost of living. How is that relevant/not irrelevant?

I'm unsure of the reasoning, but one plausible reasoning is that if one has been paying taxes to the most local unit (state/local) for the past 10 years or whatever by working at whole foods and buying things with his productive labor, that means that both he may have paid in enough society can help him and still break even, as well as provide some historical basis to presume the investment to help him get housed will pay in dividends in continuing taxes down the line.

One might argue if someone just shows up from afar in SF, you get them housed and their life back together, there's comparably (to the 10 year person) little reason to believe they're gonna stick around to pay back into the system and produce the kind of ROI on the localities investment that whole foods guy may give

I'm not saying this is a "good" argument per se, but it would one that would make sense to me. If someone put a gun to my head and said "figure out how to use taxes, and only taxes, to help the homeless" I would probably rank cities by unskilled income : cost of living, then build rehabilitation facilities in those areas and use a nationwide distributed tax model to offer people voluntary relocation and rehabilitation in partnership with local businesses which is jointly funded nationwide to avoid the situation seen such as in SF where the minute you give the homeless more benefits you get them coming from all around to benefit.

If you give homeless benefits just for showing up it's gonna end up as a race to the bottom, IMO, where whoever is the most 'helpful' sees a landslide of immigration of people needing help, which isn't practical when the load isn't shared. SF locals are probably not going to want to be the ones known as the person that foots the rehab bill for anyone who hitchhikes to town and then merrily walks away never to pay it back as soon as they get their heads on straight.

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you outright dismiss building social housing as expensive and ineffective but you want to put them in to an equally expensive situation that is clearly less effective. I cannot imagine why you would think prison is better than social housing unless you ignore the very real cost of prison.

Prison is social housing, but it’s mandatory rather than optional. We could build all the social housing we want, but it will only house people who willingly move into it. Many homeless people are insane drug addicts, and they are the ones who disrupt society, and they will not willingly change. What would you do about that?

Prison abuses the soul and doesn’t help the individual. Look at the recidivism rates for US prisons to see how prison does nothing to rehabilitate people. If prison doesn’t help someone and you want to send them to prison, then you aren’t actually trying to help people you’re just trying to get rid of them. If you actually try to help people you will see how much better social housing is. But I don’t think that’s where your mind is at. You see these people as a lost cause and you want police to take them away. Don’t pretend you care if you actually just want them gone.

“Many people are insane drug addicts”

Lots of people in society are drug addicts. Probably the rate is slightly higher amongst the homeless because homelessness can be hard.

Lots of people don’t want to go to existing shelters because of the draconian rules at those shelters. Probably you wouldn’t want to live in a place either if you had to be home every night at 8pm and you couldn’t have friends over and you weren’t allowed to have some beer. Does that mean we should throw you in prison?

What I would do is provide the services these people need. Housing, mental health services, counseling, job training, and job placement programs. All told this would cost less than prison because these programs have been shown to actually help people, so the burden to the state will go down over a few years as these programs do what they are supposed to. But prison won’t help them, so the costs will continue for as long as they are in prison, and once they are released you’re back where you started.

Don’t pretend you want to help people if you don’t actually care what is most effective at helping them.

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#196
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of those 3 I can explain SF and LA (nice weather) but no idea about NYC.

Every single one of the cities with large homeless populations have absurdly high housing costs. All the people in this thread are refusing to acknowledge that may play some causal factor because the solution might involve slightly lowering their property values.

Martha's Vineyard, Malibu, both Hamptons etc have even higher housing costs yet no homeless. It appears you've found a correlation without causation.

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absolutely appalling. Considering we've historically incarcerated these people and it didn't fix anything, I don't see how you can blame "progressive" attempts to solve the crisis. Do more people come to these cities that have such policies? Probably... but that's not an indictment of the policy. We have a national crisis. We have some cities/states who literally pay for 1-way bus tickets out (as an alternati…

When inmates at one of the most notoriously dysfunctional jails spend a few hours in soiled clothes with poop on the floor, it's news. That's every day in Civic Center. There's a point at which freedom and independence aren't working for someone. Maybe with more resources it could work. But sometimes you need to be in the care of an institution from which you cannot just wander away. This seems obvious... I genuinely…

Let's shove everyone into a horrifying place that is already overcrowded and unable to take care of it's inmates and does very little to rehabilitate anyone. At least we won't see them anymore, right?

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absolutely appalling. Considering we've historically incarcerated these people and it didn't fix anything, I don't see how you can blame "progressive" attempts to solve the crisis. Do more people come to these cities that have such policies? Probably... but that's not an indictment of the policy. We have a national crisis. We have some cities/states who literally pay for 1-way bus tickets out (as an alternati…

> This solves nothing. Having more people in jail solves nothing. Yes it does. It gets them off the streets. It is the only thing that will do it. The problem in the past is that we only incarcerated homeless people overnight. Jail was a revolving door, and people went right back onto the streets after being released, over and over again. The problem is that we released them before they had recovered from the problem…

> Yes it does. It gets them off the streets. It is the only thing that will do it.

So does it follow that the reason the previous houseed persons who are now homeless were previously in jail? If not, then there are other root causes at work, such as disappearance of inexpensive housing.

The argument you are making sounds like a dialog out of Charles Dickens, just without the irony.

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#199
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Realistically, the only way we can solve this is with incarceration. This has little to do with the availability of housing, or the cost of housing. Some people will simply refuse to live in the housing that is provided. Many are so mentally ill and addicted to drugs that no amount of money we give them, either directly or indirectly, will get them off the streets. Proposed solutions that don't involve incarceration…

Trivia: what country incarcerates the most people per capita? Oddly, that country is the topic of discussion here. And I live and work in/near San Francisco and it's plenty a shit show depending on neighborhood, but a very far cry from an "open-air drug den". Let's dig in deeper for solutions.

SF incarcerates significantly less per capita than the rest of the country.

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#200
post #9

> The lawsuit alleges that the city violates state and federal laws, its own policies and homeless individuals’ rights by “punishing residents who have nowhere to go,” They have shelter beds available. People need to stop repeating falsehoods from activists and well-meaning people who keep saying this. Some homeless people prefer not to use them for a variety of reasons -- usually because shelters tend to be drug- an…

> They have shelter beds available. People need to stop repeating falsehoods from activists and well-meaning people who keep saying this.

I hope you are able to cite some sources the next time you try to make this point.

Post reply on HN