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Reducing inequality can reverse political polarisation: study

thesaint.scot

191–200 of 223 posts

Re: Reducing inequality can reverse political polarisation: study

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's not good data to support this Look at pictures of storefronts in, say, Brazil, after hours. They have steel shutters completely covering the storefront. https://www.shutterstock.com/video/clip-1053267656-sao-paulo... Why would the shop owners do that? There was a small shopowner in Seattle interviewed recently. His shop windows were smashed and then the store looted, again and again and again. What do you t…

Good questions. But the data doesn't back up your conclusion. You can point at other countries, you can bring up anecdotes, but the overall trends in the US do not match what you're saying. We're still in a scenario where crime rates seem to be decoupled from protest/decriminalization rates, and where store closure rates across the country don't line up neatly with areas that have decreased policing/prosecution strat…

> Good questions

I noticed you didn't answer any of them :-)

I also never said that 100% of inequality was caused by crime. I said that crime is a cause of inequality. Just like smoking is a cause of death.

It's pretty obvious that crime causes a reduction in the standard of living of the criminal, his family, and his community. I understand that obviousness is not proof, but you seem to thing it doesn't. Why do you think that?

Re: Reducing inequality can reverse political polarisation: study

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you start a business in a high crime neighborhood, or in a low crime one? If your dad was put in prison while you were growing up, would your standard of living go up or down? Other things drive inequality. For example, if you would be paid $12,000 for a job, and $10,000 for not working, which would you select? Would your standard of living be higher or lower?

If decreasing crime decreases inequality, why did inequality rise while crime fell? Hypotheticals aside, something is clearly going on here that you are not accounting for. > For example, if you would be paid $12,000 for a job, and $10,000 for not working, which would you select? Would your standard of living be higher or lower? It's an interesting theory, but the problem with this explanation is that pandemic checks…

> why did inequality rise while crime fell?

Crime is not the only variable affecting the economy. I gave you another variable - paying people to not work.

> It's an interesting theory

It's a question for you. Which would you choose?

As for trends, there's been a decades long increasing trend of people leaving their jobs for one reason or another and getting on disability. Disability pays less than their jobs did, but it's a workable life. Their standard of living went down, but it wasn't because of rich people. It was because they found a friendly doctor who could get them on disability, and they wouldn't have to work anymore.

https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/statcomps/di_asr/2016/sect01...

Do you think that a 5 fold increase in the number of workers on disability in the last 70 years might have contributed to inequality?

Re: Reducing inequality can reverse political polarisation: study

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My personal answer, and seemingly not so popular, is education, at all stages. Former educator here, the problem with this idea is that educational outcomes are dominated by three factors: 1. More individualized education (smaller classes or tutors) 2. Children having a safe, well resourced home life 3. Smarter, less stressed teachers To get an idea of how strong (1) is it is useful to know of a result called Bloom…

I don't follow how (1) is an indicator(?) of inequality. Aren't all the students capable of learning more with tutoring? Measuring by percentile seems like a problem if everybody improves. It's a good thing to try and make sure everyone performs to some minimum standard for their age, but are you suggesting equal outcome as a goal? If kids are learning at home, are you suggesting they should receive fewer school reso…

(1) is not an indicator of inequality but it does imply that in a very unequal economic system (where the rich can afford lots of private tutoring) "more education" is not a very good solution to inequality because only the top few percent of poor kids will be able to compete with the median rich kid.

Re: Reducing inequality can reverse political polarisation: study

#194

Worth reading Robert Sapolsky on the topic of inequality here[1]. Inequality itself (not poverty, and accounted for the material disadvantages ), causes about half of the difference in health and life expectancy outcomes in developed nations, makes people at a neurological level opportunistic and causes biological stress in populations which results in violence, crime, isolation, mental illness, and so forth. That's…

Realistically once you go beyond the simple case of extreme deprivation, inequality in social capital is going to matter far more towards outcomes in health, biological stress, violence, crime, isolation, mental issues etc. than anything strictly limited to income or assets/wealth. What are you going to do to help the social-capital-poor, those most marginalized today by their own fraying communities and neighborhoods? Merely redistributing physical and economic resources is a blunt, costly approach which does not even begin to mitigate the underlying issues.

Re: Reducing inequality can reverse political polarisation: study

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to defend their methodology, but your attempt to equate the GOP baseball shooting with an attempted coup says a lot more about your biases than the study authors'.

There was the CHAZ (Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone) established in Seattle where they explicitly seceded from the United States. In doing so, they pushed out all the police and set fire to the police station while barricading the doors with the remaining police inside (fortunately, the police escaped). The CHAZ rioters also occupied and vandalized City Hall.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with a full on coupe attempting to end our democracy by capturing the VP and Congress. There has always been civil unrest in the USA since the beginning. However never has a President attempted to overthrow and subvert the will of the people in a Presidential election through a violent mob. The two things only share one thing in common "two groups of people doing violence"

Re: Reducing inequality can reverse political polarisation: study

#196
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't directly redistribute. You set taxes and economic policies to target free-market wealth redistribution. That is, find instances where there is significant distribution of money from the poor to the rich and find ways to add friction to those markets. Like landowners renting out housing. Suck large amounts of money out of the housing market by taxing commercial loans used for residential real estate, doublin…

The problem with “just raise taxes solution” is that there is no guarantee that money from taxes is going to be evenly and correctly distributed and spent. This might work for relatively small and single-nationality countries.

What if you raised property taxes with the expectation that the tax isn’t often actually paid? For example, if every piece of real estate had to be traced back to the natural person owner(s) and the property is taxed at the individual level but graduated. Significantly. So no tax at all on the least valuable property you own, 50% tax on the next least valuable property, 100% tax on the next least, etc. With the goal being to significantly disincentivize the hoarding of housing (which is both a necessity and a form of “wealth” building) rather than to collect and redistribute wealth? Even though the ultimate outcome would (hopefully) be redistributed wealth.

Re: Reducing inequality can reverse political polarisation: study

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My personal answer, and seemingly not so popular, is education, at all stages. Former educator here, the problem with this idea is that educational outcomes are dominated by three factors: 1. More individualized education (smaller classes or tutors) 2. Children having a safe, well resourced home life 3. Smarter, less stressed teachers To get an idea of how strong (1) is it is useful to know of a result called Bloom…

I don't follow how (1) is an indicator(?) of inequality. Aren't all the students capable of learning more with tutoring? Measuring by percentile seems like a problem if everybody improves. It's a good thing to try and make sure everyone performs to some minimum standard for their age, but are you suggesting equal outcome as a goal? If kids are learning at home, are you suggesting they should receive fewer school reso…

A lot of poorer students don’t get any homework help at home. None. Their parents are working several jobs and don’t have time. Some of the parents might not have the ability. If you had two identically intelligent and capable students and one gets thirty minutes of one-on-one homework help from a parent every day after school and the other didn’t I can definitely imagine there would be a significant difference how much they’ve each learned by the time the school year ends.

Re: Reducing inequality can reverse political polarisation: study

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good questions. But the data doesn't back up your conclusion. You can point at other countries, you can bring up anecdotes, but the overall trends in the US do not match what you're saying. We're still in a scenario where crime rates seem to be decoupled from protest/decriminalization rates, and where store closure rates across the country don't line up neatly with areas that have decreased policing/prosecution strat…

> Good questions I noticed you didn't answer any of them :-) I also never said that 100% of inequality was caused by crime. I said that crime is a cause of inequality. Just like smoking is a cause of death. It's pretty obvious that crime causes a reduction in the standard of living of the criminal, his family, and his community. I understand that obviousness is not proof, but you seem to thing it doesn't. Why do you…

> I noticed you didn't answer any of them :-)

Well, short answer to all of them, I'm not 100% certain, but apparently not for any reasons that show up predictably in national trends. :)

You want me to treat this like it's a personal question, but whatever answer I give you doesn't matter if it doesn't reflect what other people are doing.

If I tell you that I would choose to open a business in the high-crime area, are you going to be shocked and concede the argument? Of course not. You know on some level that asking someone's opinion on a web forum is not the same thing as examining national economic trends.

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> I also never said that 100% of inequality was caused by crime. I said that crime is a cause of inequality.

If you're just saying that crime is a contributing factor, sure I buy that, absolutely. But that's a very different thing then complaining that people have the causation backwards. We might as well say that both crime and inequality contribute to each other in subtle ways, crime/poverty being a cyclical problem is just as obvious of a conclusion, so I'm not sure what your objection is if that's the case.

More to the point though, saying "it's a factor" isn't necessarily the same thing as saying it should be the primary factor we focus on. We have a lot of data now saying that pulling the lever on crime is not influential enough to seriously impact inequality. At best, that's the conclusion we can draw from that data.

Saying that crime is a weak cause of inequality that doesn't show up in national trends is effectively the same thing as saying we can kind of ignore it when talking about inequality. Because it obviously doesn't matter enough to be visible.

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> It's pretty obvious that crime causes a reduction in the standard of living of the criminal, his family, and his community. I understand that obviousness is not proof, but you seem to thing it doesn't. Why do you think that?

I think it's complicated -- I think that the correlation between poverty and crime rates is much higher than the correlation between inequality and crime rates, and there might be a couple of reasons for that. Crime rates contain a lot of crimes against communities, and inequality is not always focused within communities, so maybe there's a contributing factor there? Maybe it's that there are thresholds of inequality of outcomes that need to be present before they start influencing people's behavior? Or maybe because crimes are influenced by existing poverty, crimes do more to keep communities at existing levels rather than lower their outcomes further? Heck, maybe it's just that only certain crimes impact or are influenced by inequality and the data is not granular enough to pick out meaningful trends. I certainly buy that white-collar crimes like wage theft could reasonably have an impact on national economic outcomes. But I think my biggest conclusion is that anyone who claims to have a perfect explanation for any of that stuff is either selling something or deluding themselves.

I do know what the data says, which is that decreasing crime levels have not lead to decreasing inequality. I do know what the data says about policing, which is that police budgets and policies at least in the short term don't really seem to be affecting the economic health of cities in any predictable way. I do know what the data says about crime rates themselves, which is that there doesn't seem to be any really strong trend I can find that's predictive of how much of an increase in crime a given city will have seen over 2020-2022.

The actual data about the recent crime increases gets really confusing the closer you look at it. Homicides and violent crimes are up, property crimes are not rising by the same amount -- by some metrics they're going down. This is really weird, it doesn't fit with a lot of narratives. It doesn't fit with narratives about lawlessness and degradation of society, but it also doesn't fit super-well with narratives about times being tough during the pandemic, because on the surface we would expect thefts to rise more than homicides in that case. People have offered explanations that maybe people traveling less makes it harder to steal things? Which... maybe that's true. It's a plausible theory, but there's not really data to back it up.

Regardless, I don't think that the right way to approach any of these questions is to say, "I have a theory that seems obvious to me, it doesn't match with the data, but I'm not sure what the better theory is so I'm just going to keep confidently asserting it." I think at some point it's better to take a step back and say, "I notice I am confused." I don't really need to offer you an alternative explanation as to why inequality is going up in order to disprove that crime is a major reason. I can just point at the numbers and say that if crime was a major reason, the numbers would be different. You don't need to replace a theory to prove it wrong.

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Now, could crime be a contributing factor to inequality? I guess. Maybe crime causes inequality trends and inequality trends cause crime. Both seem obvious from some explanations, and there's about the same amount of data for both conclusions -- which is to say, not much. But clearly these metrics are not strongly correlated, so if we're interested in tackling inequality, this might not be the best place for us to focus our efforts.

Re: Reducing inequality can reverse political polarisation: study

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If decreasing crime decreases inequality, why did inequality rise while crime fell? Hypotheticals aside, something is clearly going on here that you are not accounting for. > For example, if you would be paid $12,000 for a job, and $10,000 for not working, which would you select? Would your standard of living be higher or lower? It's an interesting theory, but the problem with this explanation is that pandemic checks…

> why did inequality rise while crime fell? Crime is not the only variable affecting the economy. I gave you another variable - paying people to not work. > It's an interesting theory It's a question for you. Which would you choose? As for trends, there's been a decades long increasing trend of people leaving their jobs for one reason or another and getting on disability. Disability pays less than their jobs did, but…

> Crime is not the only variable affecting the economy. I gave you another variable - paying people to not work.

It sounds like you're saying here that crime doesn't have a strong enough effect on inequality to really practically matter when compared to other factors. Is that what you're saying? That other factors are so much stronger that they're able to actually reverse the trend we would otherwise expect to see?

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If you're trying to find the actual reasons why inequality has gone up, we can overlay a lot of charts on top of inequality levels that will show correlations, from welfare participation to market deregulation to housing prices to even mobile phone usage.

People can debate which of those theories are correct. But all of them are more plausible than the idea that crime rates are strongly correlated with rising inequality. I have some issues with the "welfare queen" narratives that people bring out, but blaming welfare is at least pointing to two numbers that are going in the same direction.

So, sure, I will happily grant that it is more plausible that welfare levels influence inequality than it is to say that crime rates are driving inequality. I will take some minor quibbles with the fact that spikes in welfare/inequality don't seem to be correlated in convincing ways (again, we saw economic trends around 2019/2020 that didn't line up with when people were given financial aide during the pandemic, which should probably strike you as at least a little bit odd). But yes, at the very least you're now pointing at graphs that both have a positive slope.

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> It's a question for you. Which would you choose?

I would genuinely, honestly choose to work, I am interested in maximizing my earning potential for multiple reasons. I also have side/entrepreneurial stuff I do anyway for profit, so it's really not feasible for me to even consider taking welfare that would be conditional on me not having a job or earning any additional income. And the numbers you're talking about are too low for me to live comfortably, and only the working option gives me a clear path forward to changing that number.

I don't think that answer matters to you, and I don't understand why you care about it. Obviously you don't think the answer I give above about my own work preferences is representative of the average American person, so why did you ask the question if the answer didn't matter to your argument?

Re: Reducing inequality can reverse political polarisation: study

#200
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stress that you won't be able to pay bills or debts is NOT envy. You can have it even in a society where everybody is poor. That's why, in rich societies, envy is not the cause of it, but rather how society distributes its wealth is. And so it becomes a collective, not an individual, problem.

The problem in this discourse is that certain people like to call everything "inequality" whether they're talking about "some people can't pay bills" or "some people make more money than others". We might want to tolerate the latter but reduce the former. But if we call them all the same thing, we can't think clearly or formulate such nuanced policy, as Orwell noted.

That's a false dichotomy, because there is literally no country on Earth where inequality would only mean the latter. Inequal system, if free enough, always devolves into something which drowns at least someone.
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