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Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

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Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#191

Post by mpweiher »

Chris2048 wrote: post #131
ZGDUwpqEWpUZ wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Men are marginalized in many ways beyond what this one article says - education, criminal justice, mental health to name but a few broad areas. Anyone who says otherwise is part of the problem and should have no voice in this conversation. Happy International Men's Day.

> Anyone who says otherwise is part of the problem and should have no voice in this conversation. This is the same intolerant gatekeeping that I loathe in the feminist camp. Everyone has a voice, anyone can participate, no one-person gets to define "the" problem, let alone label/dehumanize people as being problems.

It's perfectly OK to "gatekeep" against falsehoods and those who spread those falsehoods. In fact, a functioning society depends on weeding out falsehoods, otherwise everything goes down the toilet.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#192

Post by tuesdayrain »

Godel_unicode wrote: post #189
tuesdayrain wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Can someone explain this in logical, non-political, terms. Probably not, because it's ultimately a political phenomenon. In left-leaning circles it's popular to deny that there can be significant statistical differences between demographics for any reason other than discrimination. Based on that logic they view all unequal gender ratios as problems that need to be solved.

This is does not quite fit the general "left-leaning" belief that I have heard. I would rephrase it as "it's popular to deny that there's an underlying preference at play when jobs which used to be female dominated, like programming, became male dominated shortly after they became lucrative." Bringing it back to the subject of the article, this entire discussion is really about tribalism. Humans tend to look favorabl…

This is what I was referring to: https://twitter.com/clairlemon/status/1195528833157386240

I feel like my interpretation of that quote is fairly accurate.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#193

Post by makapuf »

leetcrew wrote: post #171
ryanmarsh wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've not been able to wrap my head around this issue. What is the thinking behind the desire to even sex ratios in various profession? Why are some professions receiving more attention than others when it comes to evening sex ratios. Is a perfect world when every construction site, hospital, and dreary programming job (lets be honest most of them aren't fun) has an even mix of the sexes? What is the benefit? Can some…

it's hard to give a non-political answer because it's really about money and who gets it. on average, men make more money than women. a lot of people (especially women) consider this to be unfair. software engineer is one of the highest paid roles for someone with only a bachelor's degree. most software engineers are men. if your goal is to decrease the income gap between men and women, it probably seems easier to ge…

This may not be the case in Europe. Sw engineer profession is roughly as male dominated, but I think you'll need a msc/PhD level in EU and with that kind of diploma IT pays vastly less than in US.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#194

Post by obelos »

MadeThisToReply wrote: post #168
ryanmarsh wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've not been able to wrap my head around this issue. What is the thinking behind the desire to even sex ratios in various profession? Why are some professions receiving more attention than others when it comes to evening sex ratios. Is a perfect world when every construction site, hospital, and dreary programming job (lets be honest most of them aren't fun) has an even mix of the sexes? What is the benefit? Can some…

It all starts with the dubious (to say the least) premise that men and women are exactly the same. Both sexes on average want the same things, like the same things, are interested in the same things, and have the same priorities and proclivities. Therefore, in a just world, we'd see an exact 50/50 ratio of men and women in every possible occupation, because there are no differences between men and women, therefore th…

There are some extreme but isolated examples of people who are disposed to this opinion, but more commonly the objection to fields being dominated by one gender or the other is because those workplaces, as this study points out, can't seem to stop themselves from discriminating and gatekeeping against those of the other gender. While it should in theory be no problem that a workplace is 90% men and 10% women because they live in a platonic ideal where they've been free to attain to their true ambition that is influenced by biological traits related to sex, in reality, once one gender gains enough dominance in a field or workplace, sexual discrimination, harassment, and gatekeeping end up deepening the imbalance. This feedback loop ends up pushing out people of the non-dominant gender who want nothing more than to work in that field but are constantly and systemically met with prejudice and disenfranchisement.

It would be nice to deftly and precisely ameliorate this issue by just being able to say “stop acting in a sexually discriminating way because you're impeding someone's will,” and have it be so. But there are still far too many people who are willing to abet the discrimination either silently or willfully, writing the disparity off as a “natural outcome of biology.” So the alternative way to establish justice is the sledgehammer approach that equates the unequal representation with inequity. Because that is _also_ true.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#195

Post by GoodJokes »

I think hackernews needs a study moderator because yeah, how does some of this stuff get posted and then seriously considers as anything but anecdotal in this situation. When it comes tech and perceived high intelligence, the emperor has no clothes.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#196

Post by GoodJokes »

xbar wrote: post #127
flerovium wrote: post #77

It's worth noting that Sweden falls on the far end of the political/social spectrum with respect to gender law and culture. EDIT: not sure why the downvote: being on the far end of a political spectrum isn't necessarily a bad thing. Citation: [1] [1] https://www.oecd.org/els/emp/last-mile-longest-gender-nordic...

Perhaps you were down-voted because this fact does not seem relevant.

No it is because it doesn’t enforce the correct hackernews narrative

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#197

Post by PeterisP »

hirundo wrote: post #7

" a profit maximizing firm should not discriminate between workers of equal productivity based on immutable characteristics " Gender is an immutable characteristic? That's debatable. But whether it is or isn't doesn't seem to make discriminating by it better or worse. That makes immutability a poor discriminator of tolerable discrimination.

Many other characteristics are technically mutable - you can change your place of worship, you can chemically alter your skin color somewhat, you can have surgery to look younger or older, etc. However, we still consider them "immutable" characteristics insofar as we consider that employees should have zero right whatsoever to request that people change them unless they themselves want to.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#198

Post by Jensson »

stewx wrote: post #186
cinntaile wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first one I get. People distrust the combination of men and children. For whatever reason. The second one I don't get?

Others have commented there is a perception that male cleaners will steal valuables. And it may very well be statistically true, given men's much greater criminal behaviour in general compared to women.

Women and men are equally likely to shoplift, so I don't think there is a difference there as shoplifting is the closest you'd get to sneaking out a valuable from someone's home.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#199

Post by mikem170 »

guerrilla wrote: post #108
Loughla wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most sex offenders are men, does not mean most men are sex offenders. Nor does it mean that most men who want to go into childcare are sex offenders. You're inferring results from faulty logic.

> Most sex offenders are men, does not mean most men are sex offenders I didn't argue it does. It does mean that men are riskier hires though (by whatever marginal percent.)

A lot of people are being punished for this marginal percent you mention.

Re: Swedish study finds discrimination against men in female-dominated occupations

#200

Post by guerrilla »

mikem170 wrote: post #199
guerrilla wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most sex offenders are men, does not mean most men are sex offenders I didn't argue it does. It does mean that men are riskier hires though (by whatever marginal percent.)

A lot of people are being punished for this marginal percent you mention.

Humans are by default pretty terrible at risk assessment, so yeah.
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