Live data from Hacker News

My interview with Steven Levy re. leaking of my Facebook Goodbye post

alecmuffett.com

191–200 of 269 posts

Re: My interview with Steven Levy re. leaking of my Facebook Goodbye post

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would thousands of competing networks deal with a government-enforced “no E2EE; wiretapping API required” law?

Badly, and that's the point. I'd like social media to be run by everyone having a social media server linked to their home network (imagine something like a Raspberry Pi), with it being totally decentralised and every user controlling their own server. Then if the government wants to shut it down, they have to raid everyone's home.

Or, you know, just work with the ISPs to make it illegal, like with BitTorrent.

Also, what you want already exists - you're free to go use Mastodon and run your own node. You can't possibly think that's a reasonable product your grandparents would be able to use.

Re: My interview with Steven Levy re. leaking of my Facebook Goodbye post

#192
post #6

On the popularity of Haugen: I find it amusing how your government treats a whistleblower who is promoting government control over social media, vs the way your government treats a whistleblower who leaks evidence of government spying and abuse. The fact that Edward Snowden and Julian Assange are treated the way they are (and the earlier treatment of Manning) gives the US government zero credibility on press freedom,…

> Furthermore according to the FBI it's ok for Hillary Clinton to keep government communication explicitly marked classified in her basement server because no harm is intended, whereas others have been prosecuted in the absence of intended harm What exactly does this have to do with the topic? Your first paragraphs are talking about treatment of whistleblowers and Hillary Clinton is (obviously) not a whistleblower. A…

Do you realize that I am advocating for Assange, who exposed the Bush administration. Why is it only a political dig if it's aimed at Clinton?

Re: My interview with Steven Levy re. leaking of my Facebook Goodbye post

#193
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem like an intelligent, thoughtful, and educated individual. Perhaps you might find it interesting to read up on the history of attempts to pursue the precise balance you suggest is desirable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip If you seek numbers, the FBI invites you to inspect their data: https://www.fbi.gov/services/cjis/ucr As you correctly and wisely say, the world is full of hard problems with man…

Yes, I absolutely think that finding that balance is usually a case of finding the unhappy minimum and not about finding a spot where everyone is happy. > Do you think there might be cases, in the fullness of the human experience, where one set of extremists on an issue are right, their opposite numbers are wrong, and any balance between them also wrong? Yes, I think there probably are cases where something like this…

> Yes, I absolutely think that finding that balance is usually a case of finding the unhappy minimum and not about finding a spot where everyone is happy.

I'm glad we agree!

Here's where the hot take comes in: we're there now. Encryption is something we have access to. Law enforcement manages to work around it on a regular basis and has now for several decades.

> Yes, I think there probably are cases where something like this happens but I would assume those cases would be a little less debatable.

One would certainly hope so, but it's perhaps possible that this might not always be true. There are often people ready and willing to debate what should be undebateable. It shocks the conscience.

> If you are talking about the current case though, what is the false premise or what are the biases?

Some people have come to this conversation with the false premise that taking away encryption will substantially help law enforcement, improving safety and security for our vulnerable friends, neighbors, and community members. Their pain, suffering, and exploitation is very real, yet that perhaps does not always make functional what is done in the name of keeping them safe.

Some have come to this debate with the bias of assuming there is a useful policy medium to be found. Perhaps there is not, as we might be dealing with technical matters that are all-or-nothing in unavoidable ways.

Some may find these to be perhaps worthy of careful examination, as such things can perhaps lead to dangerously misguided policy - such as the Clipper chip or mass surveillance.

Thank you for being thoughtful and centering kindness, mercy, and compassion.

Re: My interview with Steven Levy re. leaking of my Facebook Goodbye post

#194
post #43
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On one hand, it seems everybody wants more freedom and less surveillance, but they give FB a hard time for not monitoring content better. I don't think these are conflicting views: (1) Less monitoring on private messages (2) More monitoring on public posts

My question is what constitutes a public post? I feel like that definition is evolving. Is a WhatsApp group with 1k members spreading disinformation still a private message?

Furthermore, aligning on a definition is only half the battle. If you create some arbitrary line (100+ = public), forums will break up in into many groups of 99. Or it will switch to viral messages that are forwarded in 1:1 threads. There is a the fundamental asymmetry between bad actors (who are highly sophisticated) and regular users (who are generally unsophisticated) that makes it really hard to roll out tools / rules that have both high precision and high recall.

Re: My interview with Steven Levy re. leaking of my Facebook Goodbye post

#195
post #21

Just saying, at this stage, if I were Facebook and I wanted to take the pressure off, I’d be putting out little stories that make the story about the whistleblower instead of about Facebook. I’d also focus on stories that will make us disagree with her over various particulars rather than with Facebook. Facebook has a pretty simple problem: they pissed off too many people, either by taking too much of the winnings fo…

Facebook pissed off people by having power. The power to control the narrative (or take it away from others by virtue of giving yahoos in their basement, or regular people, a huge voice) is the real power, and the elite are really scared of that. I don't mean that to sound globalist/conspiracist, but it's effectively what's going on here. Mostly from the centre to far left (FYI not being political here, this has noth…

[deleted]

Re: My interview with Steven Levy re. leaking of my Facebook Goodbye post

#196
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My question is what constitutes a public post? I feel like that definition is evolving. Is a WhatsApp group with 1k members spreading disinformation still a private message?

The distinction between "public" and "private" is gray and messy when it comes to corporate social media platforms. Is anything really private? How do you send a message to someone in Messenger? You're not sending the HTTP request to person X. You're sending it to Facebook with metadata that says "please make this visible to person X and consider it private". Then Facebook keeps the message and decides whether or not…

> Then Facebook keeps the message and decides whether or not to publish it onward to person X

An interesting weird angle: If X deletes their whatsApp account messages fail silently. FB stores the message under the false pretense that they are able to forward it to X. I think imessage does the same?

Re: My interview with Steven Levy re. leaking of my Facebook Goodbye post

#197
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On one hand, it seems everybody wants more freedom and less surveillance, but they give FB a hard time for not monitoring content better. I don't think these are conflicting views: (1) Less monitoring on private messages (2) More monitoring on public posts

How about (3) Less consolidation of power Personally as someone who doesn't use FB and never will, I couldn't care less if Facebook wants to track and monitor every one of their users, monetize their every movement, and ban any message they want. In a free market you'd have thousands of social networks to provide competition with all sorts of different policies and ToS. The real issue is that one company is in a skew…

> The real issue is that one company is in a skewed position of power due to a broken marketplace

Nobody seems able to identify what the unfair advantage is.

The truth is that this is the nature of social networks: the successful ones tend towards Monopoly. Why? Because more people attract more people. Access begets access. The value of a network grows with the square of its size [0], and higher-value networks attract more users.

You can't break up a social network without starting to make rules about who can associate with who, which is a fundamentally anti-free position.

The problem is not Facebook. In its absence another would take its place. The "problem" is human nature, and that we were not designed cognitively for the types of networks that technology now enables for us.

We should focus on education, friendship, and real-world experiences. Legal fights against social networks in general or Facebook in specific are futile.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalfe%27s_law

Re: My interview with Steven Levy re. leaking of my Facebook Goodbye post

#198
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On one hand, it seems everybody wants more freedom and less surveillance, but they give FB a hard time for not monitoring content better. I don't think these are conflicting views: (1) Less monitoring on private messages (2) More monitoring on public posts

How about (3) Less consolidation of power Personally as someone who doesn't use FB and never will, I couldn't care less if Facebook wants to track and monitor every one of their users, monetize their every movement, and ban any message they want. In a free market you'd have thousands of social networks to provide competition with all sorts of different policies and ToS. The real issue is that one company is in a skew…

> In a free market you'd have thousands of social networks to provide competition with all sorts of different policies and ToS.

You know, I want to believe that, but I don't think it's true.

Because of the "network effect", the value of belonging to a social network is mostly dependent on how many people are on it. This dynamic very strongly favors a few big social networks.

Re: My interview with Steven Levy re. leaking of my Facebook Goodbye post

#199
post #43
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On one hand, it seems everybody wants more freedom and less surveillance, but they give FB a hard time for not monitoring content better. I don't think these are conflicting views: (1) Less monitoring on private messages (2) More monitoring on public posts

My question is what constitutes a public post? I feel like that definition is evolving. Is a WhatsApp group with 1k members spreading disinformation still a private message?

Depends on the type of invitation.

Re: My interview with Steven Levy re. leaking of my Facebook Goodbye post

#200

As cited in this article, Frances Haugen is arguing against allowing Facebook to use end-to-end encryption because she suggests Facebook should have more surveillance of private communications: https://twitter.com/AlecMuffett/status/1452309133928054799?s... A lot of people jumped to the defense of the Facebook leaker because the media so successfully framed it as a “whistleblower” situation, but that’s not really wha…

Frances Haugen's own motives are not the defining factor regarding the public utility of leaking this material. Her motives are her own, and once her information is out in the open it isn't up to her to decide what we all do about it. I'm not about to dismiss what was revealed just because I disagree with some of her opinions about that material.

> motives are not the defining factor regarding the public utility of leaking this material

An evaluation of likely motives is incorporated into the evaluation of the evidence. There are a lot of things that can't be known: How much is true? How much made up? How much is true but not representative of the totality?

Post reply on HN