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6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

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Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#191

Post by numpad0 »

imtringued wrote: post #155
threeseed wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have drones with crazy range, speed and ability to stop threats. They are called UAVs and indeed cost millions each.

People don't seem to understand that we mount missiles on expensive jets because jets can travel thousands of miles and must not be shot down before they reach their destination. When people talk about how they can build lethal drones for $100 or something they assume that you can launch the weapon 3 miles away from the target and that the target has already been spotted. It's like saying that a million dollars can k…

I can’t stand those “$100 lethal drone” people dumping same story over, starting off by describing rocket artillery and derailing into strategic bombing all while maintaining it’s all enabled by battery prop toy drones. WTF they have their brains for!

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#192

Post by benhurmarcel »

jabl wrote: post #61

It seems in Europe there is the general idea that with the USA waning as the sole superpower, and further with the USA more and more focused on great power competition with China [1] rather than partnering with Europe against the Soviet Union, Europe must take on more responsibility for its own defense. Including the capability to build top of the line high tech military gear like fighter jets. Of course, the problem…

Reducing military development costs has some solutions, but it’s difficult to apply in practice.

The most effective things you can do is to not force spreading the work across specific companies and countries, and not change the specs as the program goes.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#193

Post by spullara »

EMM_386 wrote: post #150
dotancohen wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know there is no handbook for peace What does peace look like to you? Do people just stop fighting and start loving their neighbours? You mentioned Jerusalem. I'm Israeli, so I'm biased towards one side of the Jerusalem story but let me try to frame the other side of the story as to not play my biases. I probably won't be accurate because my propaganda is different from their propaganda. And I won't reply because…

> What does peace look like to you? Do people just stop fighting and start loving their neighbours? It would look a lot more like regional conflicts without $1 billion each fighter jets. Iron Dome, drones and other technology prove this can be handled regionally without the need for a single advanced fighter jet, ballistic missile submarine, or any of these other frankly absurd expenditures. The work force dedicated…

I can agree with you except for the ballistic missile submarine. Mutually assured destruction is what keeps conflicts regional.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#194

Post by Guthur »

angelzen wrote: post #181
pkd wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If past is an indicator, it might take upto 30 years for it to be operational.

By the time all is said and done the drones of the NeoOttoman empire would have long taken over Europe. I for one am totally looking for the looming Caffa reboot.

Is that a mod for HoI 4?

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#195

Post by wombatmobile »

eitland wrote: post #188
wombatmobile wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What does peace look like to you? Peace is what the United States has had with Vietnam since 1975. How can we understand that, when the reason for going to war, at the cost of 58,000 American lives, was that without an intervention, the domino theory predicted that the world order would inevitably collapse? It didn't. Vietnam, notwithstanding the pandemic, is a tourist destination where 18 year old American kids ha…

Problem is the West had just experienced the failure that was to try to make peace with a mad dictator (Hitler) a few decades before. Also the Communists were quite open about their plans for world domination.

Hitler was killed in 1945.

Are you saying the West was unable to distinguish between Hitler and other world leaders, 20 years later? That sounds like a cognitive bias, akin to PTSD. Surely it would be better for the world to develop therapies for that cognitive bias instead of going to war.

> Also the Communists were quite open about their plans for world domination.

Didn't the Russians defeat Hitler, at the cost of 22 million Russian casualties?

What plans for world domination are you referring to?

Can you point to any act of armed aggression by the Russians against a Western government?

Can you point to any act of armed aggression by the Chinese Communist Part against a western government?

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#196

Post by mboto »

erdewit wrote: post #77
numpad0 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s called cruise missiles

> That’s called cruise missiles There's also the class of "Loitering munition", which was used to great effect in the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war. https://www.brookings.edu/techstream/loitering-munitions-pre...

Great read, thank you for posting that.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#197

Post by _abox »

mariuolo wrote: post #177
_abox wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They've never been team players. Don't forget they were happily building Nazi tank parts in WWII while playing nice with the allies. On the other hand, many EU countries have picked US fighters over Swedish offerings like the Gripen. It does go both ways. I'd love to see the EU more militarily independent from the US. Especially because they tend to start wars for economic reasons. Sponsoring the military industrial…

> They've never been team players. Don't forget they were happily building Nazi tank parts in WWII while playing nice with the allies. Please tell me what they could have done instead, being locked between a nazi-occupied country (Norway), one at war and partially occupied by the Soviets (Finland) and with a military monster to the south. Sweden had to play nice or risk being squashed like a bug. Pretty much the same…

Understood, I never really got why the Nazis left Sweden alone but did go after Norway and Denmark. And at the same time were so hell-bent on conquering the empty deserts in North Africa.

But those ball bearings and other parts helped kill a lot of allies.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#198

Post by setum »

dotancohen wrote: post #133
wombatmobile wrote: post #49

War is in part an expression of technological competitive advantage. Nth generation weaponry is expensive because technology requires the best minds, materials, and facilities that money can buy. But what if for the same money, or less, we could buy something even better? How much does peace cost? Has anybody ever costed it? For example, what could $2 trillion have bought in Iraq, Portland, or Jerusalem if it had bee…

> I know there is no handbook for peace What does peace look like to you? Do people just stop fighting and start loving their neighbours? You mentioned Jerusalem. I'm Israeli, so I'm biased towards one side of the Jerusalem story but let me try to frame the other side of the story as to not play my biases. I probably won't be accurate because my propaganda is different from their propaganda. And I won't reply because…

$2 trillions could have been used to convert Palestinians into Jews, Christians, Jains or Buddhists, peacefully of-course. While it may not have resolved all the conflicts, it definitely would have reduced it drastically.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#199

Post by wombatmobile »

wombatmobile wrote: post #195
eitland wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem is the West had just experienced the failure that was to try to make peace with a mad dictator (Hitler) a few decades before. Also the Communists were quite open about their plans for world domination.

Hitler was killed in 1945. Are you saying the West was unable to distinguish between Hitler and other world leaders, 20 years later? That sounds like a cognitive bias, akin to PTSD. Surely it would be better for the world to develop therapies for that cognitive bias instead of going to war. > Also the Communists were quite open about their plans for world domination. Didn't the Russians defeat Hitler, at the cost of…

People who prefer peace to war know what kind of people downvote comments like this without offering a substantive response.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#200

Post by scarygliders »

ben_w wrote: post #139
scarygliders wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not correct. NATO has been the peacekeeping element in Europe. Not the EU, which is a far younger organisation than NATO.

They do different things. Metaphorically, NATO is a wall-building exercise while the EU is bridge-building. NATO has an external focus, initially keeping Europe safe from the Warsaw Pact . The EU is an economic bloc: while it does have a mutual defence article, that article is explicitly secondary to NATO obligations. More importantly it builds the peace, with the primary threat being economic/political, with loss of…

The point I was making was in response to the claim that the EU have been responsible for helping keeping the peace in Europe, which is clearly an incorrect claim.

In fact technically speaking neither NATO nor the EU have prevented wars happening in /Europe/ over the last 60-odd years. And I mean Europe. The EU is not Europe.

You only have to search on wars in Europe in the last 60 years, the list is long.

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