How to Work Hard • Hacker News Board

Re: How to Work Hard

#191

Post by giantg2 » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 3:21 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #170

giantg2 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I updated to multi-millionaire. The idea was that people would have enough money to quit their job and live very comfortably. I think the network effect is highly overblown for the average person. Sure, networks can be good for the people in the top 10%, but I don't see it really helping most of us because what are the chances our average friends will be in a position to hire us to a high position. I don't see an ave…

Is the average for a developer really that low (in the US)? In the Boston-area market (now remote, but same pay scale), we're paying more than that for fresh college hires. Get hired, contribute to your 401(k), buy a house, and do that for 15 years and in most markets I think your change in net worth over the 15 years is more likely to be >$1MM than less.

Yes. I make under $100k with 9 years experience and a masters as a midlevel.

https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/software-developer-salary...

Re: How to Work Hard

#192

Post by paulpauper » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 3:22 PM UTC

barrkel wrote: post #183

EricE wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it funny that all these people with incredible luck - every single one - also work their asses off?

It's necessary but not sufficient. What if you work hard all through your 20s, not a day off, and it doesn't work out (which it doesn't, in the billionaire sense, for most people)? How do you get back the first flush of youth? This essay from Paul reminded me once again how relatively blinkered he is. He has his mental model of a good life - for obvious reasons, it's one which is somewhat similar to his own - and he…

>it's necessary but not sufficient.

not even necessary if you inherit it

Re: How to Work Hard

#193

Post by tut-urut-utut » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 3:22 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #44

Hard work can be good, but only if you own a substantial capital interest in the company/result. But if you can hire people to do it for you, then you can reap the benefits and live a life worth living. If you are just part of the labor and not the capital, then there really isn't an incentive to work harder than necessary to keep you job or earn a measly raise. If you tell people that if they work 12+ hours a day in…

Entirely agree.

Instead of worshipping hard work, maybe we should be promoting "smart work". As a society, we don't need a bunch of overworked and burnt out people in their late twenties. That's not good for anyone.

Re: How to Work Hard

#194

Post by pjerem » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 3:22 PM UTC

yetihehe wrote: post #35

jimbokun wrote: post #15

Being able to decide what to work on requires a certain amount of privilege, as opposed to needing to do whatever you can to pay for rent, bills, and groceries this month.

So what? Being able to comment on HN requires a certain amount of privilege too.

Personally, I just had to click on the "login" button then to fill a username and a password.

Re: How to Work Hard

#195

Post by giantg2 » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 3:22 PM UTC

lupire wrote: post #174

giantg2 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I updated to multi-millionaire. The idea was that people would have enough money to quit their job and live very comfortably. I think the network effect is highly overblown for the average person. Sure, networks can be good for the people in the top 10%, but I don't see it really helping most of us because what are the chances our average friends will be in a position to hire us to a high position. I don't see an ave…

> live very comfortably. The single highest ROI thing you can do for your life is to drop that "very".

But then it wouldn't be consistent with the use of Gates as an example. That's basically the point.

Re: How to Work Hard

#196

Post by twalla » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 3:22 PM UTC

EricE wrote: post #141

papito wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they enjoy it or do they THINK they enjoy it? Many people realize that they wasted their lives on being in the office after they retire. This TED talk can be a revelation: https://www.ted.com/talks/bj_miller_what_really_matters_at_t... And the Bill Gates thing? PLEASE. Yeah, I agree with the previous comment. A horrible example. Bill Gates was one of the most lucky sons of bitches in the history of the planet. Bor…

Isn't it funny that all these people with incredible luck - every single one - also work their asses off?

I've heard hard work described as increasing your luck "surface area". So imagine you're trying to catch luck "raindrops" and you're Bill Gates - sure you're busting your ass but you're starting off with a football stadium sized bucket in monsoon season. A poor kid from Baltimore with divorced parents could work as hard and end up with the analogy-equivalent of a coffee cup in Death Valley

Re: How to Work Hard

#197

Post by paulpauper » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 3:23 PM UTC

lupire wrote: post #187

EricE wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it funny that all these people with incredible luck - every single one - also work their asses off?

Warren Buffet's son didn't.

in a generation or 2 we are going to be seeing the forbes 50 list full of bezos and musks kids. yeah hard work indeed

Re: How to Work Hard

#198

Post by necrotic_comp » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 3:23 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #170

giantg2 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I updated to multi-millionaire. The idea was that people would have enough money to quit their job and live very comfortably. I think the network effect is highly overblown for the average person. Sure, networks can be good for the people in the top 10%, but I don't see it really helping most of us because what are the chances our average friends will be in a position to hire us to a high position. I don't see an ave…

Is the average for a developer really that low (in the US)? In the Boston-area market (now remote, but same pay scale), we're paying more than that for fresh college hires. Get hired, contribute to your 401(k), buy a house, and do that for 15 years and in most markets I think your change in net worth over the 15 years is more likely to be >$1MM than less.

> buy a house In my neighborhood in Brooklyn, NY, a 1 bedroom is approximately a million dollars. COL in the area where your job is is critically important as well.

Re: How to Work Hard

#199

Post by ryandrake » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 3:24 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #84

giantg2 wrote: post #44

Hard work can be good, but only if you own a substantial capital interest in the company/result. But if you can hire people to do it for you, then you can reap the benefits and live a life worth living. If you are just part of the labor and not the capital, then there really isn't an incentive to work harder than necessary to keep you job or earn a measly raise. If you tell people that if they work 12+ hours a day in…

> If you tell people that if they work 12+ hours a day in their 20s that they would be millionaires or billionaires Billionaire isn’t a realistic goal, but millionaire is a common outcome for software developers who work hard through their 20s and 30s now. It doesn’t even require a FAANG job or living in a super expensive city any more, just wise job selection, a reasonable amount of financial savvy and budget adhere…

> Working hard in the mailroom or stocking shelves at a grocery store isn’t going to translate into a successful software career

Equally, working hard as a software engineer isn't going to translate into the "uncapped salary" class of employment like CEO/CTO, VP, Founder, etc. There's a class ceiling where only a certain type of person gains entry. You can hard-work yourself to the bone writing code, but that "VP of Engineering" role is going to go to the external candidate who is already "VP of Engineering" somewhere else, and who has been some flavor of Director or VP his whole career. Jobs are a lot more class-stratified and career immobile than we like to think they are. This reminds me of a previous "hard work" discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27517158

Re: How to Work Hard

#200

Post by foobarbazetc » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 3:24 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #44

Hard work can be good, but only if you own a substantial capital interest in the company/result. But if you can hire people to do it for you, then you can reap the benefits and live a life worth living. If you are just part of the labor and not the capital, then there really isn't an incentive to work harder than necessary to keep you job or earn a measly raise. If you tell people that if they work 12+ hours a day in…

To add to this: there are people who earn minimum wage doing what some might call menial jobs (or 3 jobs back to back) and they work 10x harder than the average startup programmer or founder.

They might not have gone to school at all. Or they might have a PhD from country most Americans couldn't find on a map but still end up cleaning the offices of startups.