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Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

reuters.com

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Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#191

Post by ggreer »

akerl_ wrote: post #4
tapoxi wrote: post #2

Why are they removing these features from a car with a promise of patching them back in later? Shouldn’t that be ready to go before committing to a hardware change?

Because the actual change is driven by supply chain issues w/ radar gear, and the vision-is-better party line is just to make it sell better.

I don't know about that. Musk and Karpathy have always been pretty gung-ho about solving self driving with nothing but cameras.

We'll know for sure if they ever re-add radar to the Model 3/Y in the US. I think they won't. My main source of, "WTF are you doing, autopilot?" is phantom braking due to the radar incorrectly perceiving an overhead sign as an obstacle.

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#192

Post by oses »

jdhn wrote: post #153
pmastela wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the worst part is that it's not even transferable from one car to another. That would make sense to do it that way: Sell FSD as some sort of license that always works in any Tesla one drives. How does it currently work? If someone sells their Tesla does the FSD package follow the car or does the new owner need to purchase FSD for that car?

I believe it follows the car, as you can buy used Teslas with FSD.

IIRC it depends on if it was ordered with FSD or bought it as an upgrade. My understanding is if it wasn't originally ordered with it, the new owner has to upgrade again to get it.

(Since its on the monroney label they have to keep it for cars that are ordered with it originally)

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#193

Post by gmadsen »

jonplackett wrote: post #129
dmm wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, IMO, it will never happen because it needs a full artificial general intelligence. I think it will happen but only by making many expensive, intrusive changes to our cities and roads to accommodate "self-driving" cars.

I think we still must be missing something very fundamental with the way we’re doing AI. When you look at nature and see a tiny bee or fly navigating perfectly around all sorts of obstacles, including the newspaper I’m trying to swat it with, using just that teeny tiny brain running of mili-watts of power with just compound eyes to guide it. And in 3D space not a nice flat surface. But we still can’t make a car not d…

These are self inflicted problems by only using cameras.

These are entirely avoidable problems using the sensors and methods every other company besides Tesla are using

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#194

Post by matmatmatmat »

xvf22 wrote: post #159
gauravphoenix wrote: post #58

>removing radar sensors to transition to a camera-based Autopilot system A few weeks back, I had a terrible experience while using auto pilot. I was driving on a highway (in CA) with autopilot engaged. For the most part, there was a concrete median on the highway. Suddenly, a section came with no concrete median and a new left only turn lane gets added. For whatever reasons, autopilot thought it is a great idea to su…

Thankfully you were alert! The problem is it works really really well just enough to have people drop their guard a bit which leads to all sorts of bad outcomes. Who knows when a car firmware update kills someone by adding a twitch like this where previously there was none.

I don't know why you're getting downvoted, I think you make a really valid point: It appears to work well-enough for many people that they lower their guard, but not well-enough to actually work reliably, so it actually increases the overall risk profile.

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#195

Post by wearywanderer »

valine wrote: post #116
TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can someone tell me if SpaceX's tail-landing rockets are vision-only systems? Street vehicle navigation seems at least as difficult as nailing a rocket landing.

Humans are proof that's its possible to safely drive a car with pure vision. Pretty sure no human has ever propulsively landed a rocket on earth using nothing but vision.

> Pretty sure no human has ever propulsively landed a rocket on earth using nothing but vision.

Neither has SpaceX. On the other hand, humans have been using their plain jane eyeballs to land helicopters for years.

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#196

Post by henrikschroder »

Closi wrote: post #108
ghoward wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More people need to see your comment because there seems to be a belief that full self driving is just around the corner. However, IMO, it will never happen because it needs a full artificial general intelligence. In your case, the new lane was clearly marked, which just shows how weak the system really is. Imagine if there was snow covering the lane markings. Or sunlight reflecting off of the road confuses the visio…

> However, IMO, it will never happen because it needs a full artificial general intelligence. I don’t think that’s true - but it certainly needs more than a couple of poor resolution cameras and some underpowered hardware powered by hype. You can see how poor the vision of these systems is by just watching a few Tesla autopilot videos and seeing cars flash into/out of recognition on the screen. The first actual self…

> I don’t think that’s true - but it certainly needs more than a couple of poor resolution cameras

How would your imagined autopilot system handle traffic flaggers, construction workers with signs, or various people directing traffic with handsignals?

How will your system see the difference between a police officer making hand signs that you have to obey, and some random person making hand signals?

How will it solve turn taking at stop signals, and how will it solve people waving you on, thereby changing the turn-taking order?

There are tons of driving scenarios that require you to look at other humans, figure out who they are, and figure out what they want. For humans, this is dead simple. For computers... Nope.

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#197

Post by wearywanderer »

valine wrote: post #177
moojd wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think humans are a good benchmark for what we should expect from FSD.

Not in the short term for sure. I've been pretty impressed with the FSD beta videos circulating youtube though. It's better than you would expect for a non-geofenced, vision based self driving system.

Better than I would have expected? I guess we didn't watch the same videos. I expected to see the system repeatedly trying to kill people and that's exactly what I saw in those videos.

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#198

Post by oses »

rootusrootus wrote: post #186
masklinn wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They are in severe danger of being disrupted by the very automakers they took on. The worst part is they’re nowhere near: the effective strength of Tesla is that they built a large and reliable network of fast chargers. I don’t know how non-Tesla charging is in the US, but in Europe it’s still a complete mess of half-assed crap, meaning if you don’t have a Tesla you either simply can’t make trips beyond a single-ch…

I've had a Tesla, and I still have a Bolt, so I have experienced both. The supercharging experience is smoother. But the standardized infrastructure generally works fine, even if it is more expensive. What I think a lot of people are starting to realize is that the road trip angle is small. It needs to work, but it doesn't make or break the experience. In both cases I found that I did 99% of my charging at home, and…

Between where I live now and where my parents live, there is a distinct lack of dc fast chargers (most are in dealers where you need to be there during business hours to use as they regularly park cars in those spots), while there are plenty of superchargers. I really want to buy a used i3 for my daily driver, but there is no way I'd be able drive it to my parents without borrowing my wife's car.

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#199

Post by AareyBaba »

jonplackett wrote: post #129
dmm wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, IMO, it will never happen because it needs a full artificial general intelligence. I think it will happen but only by making many expensive, intrusive changes to our cities and roads to accommodate "self-driving" cars.

I think we still must be missing something very fundamental with the way we’re doing AI. When you look at nature and see a tiny bee or fly navigating perfectly around all sorts of obstacles, including the newspaper I’m trying to swat it with, using just that teeny tiny brain running of mili-watts of power with just compound eyes to guide it. And in 3D space not a nice flat surface. But we still can’t make a car not d…

Organisms tuned by years of evolution can fail when confronted by novel environments. Think of a bee that wanders indoors and keeps hitting itself on a window pane trying to escape. A moth attracted to a light bulb. A cat chasing a laser pointer. Deer paralyzed by headlights.

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#200

Post by goshx »

t0mas88 wrote: post #78
goshx wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing to be fixed. They are replacing radar with vision.

They're disabling some functions due to the switch and promising to bring them back with an update. So that's really a fix for something that isn't working anymore. If those features are important to you, it makes sense to wait for the update to be released before you buy. Don't trust a Tesla promise, wait for the feature to be there in reality. It took them a very long time to make the promised automatic wipers work…

"Autosteer will be limited to a maximum speed of 75 mph and a longer minimum following distance.

Smart Summon (if equipped) and Emergency Lane Departure Avoidance may be disabled at delivery."

Are these really important features that you would postpone a purchase of the car? With the exception of the "Emergency Lane Departure Avoidance", no other car in the industry has these features anyways.

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