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FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

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Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#191

Post by int_19h »

LargeWu wrote: post #133
chmod600 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When paternalistic policies are directed at particular demographics, it is kinda disturbing. I mean, sure, there's a reason. But there always is, and it makes me wonder if a line is being crossed here that will set a bad precedent.

The entire "paternalistic" argument rests on the premise that the choice to smoke, or not, is for most people purely rational, and totally discounts the predatory nature of tobacco companies and the addiction that comes with it. Menthols are targeted at blacks, and especially black children, since the menthol flavoring makes them more pleasant to smoke. Of the 20 million American menthol smokers, 17 million of those…

The alternative is to assume that most people aren't rational, except for those pushing for such laws.

If one subscribes to that, why even bother with democracy at all?

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#192

Post by Gatsky »

bustin wrote: post #151

I must have missed the memo that Prohibition worked after we banned alcohol and weed. This is a ridiculous overreach. The end game is for people to stop smoking altogether, and while that would be good for American health, this is so unnecessary. It is not the prerogative of our peers to maintain our health. It is our free right to poison ourselves in the ways we desire. In ten years from now when cigarettes are full…

They are banning sale, not use. It seems totally reasonable to say we don’t want anyone to profit from selling highly addictive health damaging products. This is ok. Your argument boils down to “I want the right to poison myself and the convenience to do it at easily accessible retail outlets.”

The suggestion that we should restrict healthcare based on the degree to which a person is culpable for their disease is a terrible idea, and impossible to implement.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#193

Post by dragonwriter »

austincheney wrote: post #131
bobbyi_settv wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the press release says, menthol was "the last allowable flavor". It's not the government banning one specific flavor because it is popular with black people. It is the government first banning every flavor except the one popular with black people and now circling back to make the rules uniform.

No, the press release does specifically target black people: > One studyExternal Link Disclaimer suggests that banning menthol cigarettes in the U.S. would lead an additional 923,000 smokers to quit, including 230,000 African Americans in the first 13 to 17 months after a ban goes into effect. An earlier studyExternal Link Disclaimer projected that about 633,000 deaths would be averted, including about 237,000 deaths…

Yes, the press release highlights the racial disparities resulting from the previous, and blatantly racist, exclusion of menthols fron the general ban on characterizing flavors.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#194

Post by rsj_hn »

dubcanada wrote: post #28
veilrap wrote: post #8

This just feels like a continuation of the failed war on drugs... I don't smoke, but I have no problem with allowing people to do so in private spaces. Why do we insist on micromanaging peoples lives?

If you are going to provide any kind free or discounted health care, the best way to make that cheaper is to restrict people from doing damaging things. So ya healthcare.

The problem here is everyone dies, and having people die of lung cancer at an early age costs the healthcare system less than having them die of some other form of diabetes/cancer/heart disease 15 years later. The studies that talk about the costs of treating cancers related to smoking are not giving you a picture of what else the same people would be treated for before they die. Really the worst thing for any healthcare system is to have lots of elderly people going through expensive treatments to prolong their life, and after you end all smoking, you'll find you have even more elderly people going through expensive treatment, except the types of cancers will be more evenly distributed.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#195

Post by busymom0 »

ketzo wrote: post #4

I’m extremely in favor of harm-reduction legislation in general, and I think this ban is a good idea overall. Flavors are effective at hooking young people in particular — lots of vaping research has shown that — and so get it outta here. Great. But man, “ban menthols because Black people like them” sure feels a little weird. Like, I get that’s not exactly what’s going on. But.. it’s a little bit what’s going on? I g…

> But man, “ban menthols because Black people like them” sure feels a little weird.

Because it's patronizing and soft bigotry of low expectations - something most of these policies either are ignorant towards or is the exact intention. It's a fact that menthol cigarettes attract youth. It's also a fact that "On average, African Americans initiate smoking at a later age compared to Whites." and "African Americans smoke fewer cigarettes per day":

https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/disparities/african-americans/in...

So most adult blacks are making conscious decisions themselves to start smoking when they are adults. And since 86% of blacks and 46% of hispanics prefer menthol cigarettes over regular ones, the adults enjoy that flavour. But this ban is patronizing them as if the adult blacks are too stupid to think for themselves, so the politicians must treat them as they treat kids and make the decisions to take away bad things from them.

https://www.fda.gov/tobacco-products/products-ingredients-co...

Instead of making changes so that youth can't get a hand on it, they are banning it because according to their own set standards, somehow adult blacks and hispanics are unable to think for themselves.

Anecdotal but when I immigrated, it was the patronizing comments and policies which I found the most "offensive". It's like being treated as kids instead of grown adults who can make decisions and achieve great things on my own.

Also this ban will result in the same consequences as the "war on drugs" and weed bans. Intentionally or unintentionally, it will end up locking more blacks just like it happened in 1980s and 1990s.

Saying this as someone who's neither touched a cigarette in my entire life, nor do I like the smell of it or weed. But I find any such overreach by the federal government to be useless with bad consequences. Better solutions would be to legalize weed, menthol cigarettes etc and put efforts towards stopping youth from getting their hands on them.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#196

Post by toomuchtodo »

howeyc wrote: post #179
toomuchtodo wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen too many addicts slowly kill themselves (tobacco, opioids, cocaine) to be able to morally maintain this position. It’s easy to say when you assume everyone is of sound mind and capable of self regulation, which is not the case. People have demons and mental health challenges that make them vulnerable. You’d need a model like Portugal, where they fund treatment programs and social services along side liber…

Who decides you're too vulnerable to make your own decisions. At what percentage of the overall populace being classified as vulnerable do we start removing the decision from the whole population. But yes, something similar to Portugal would be my preference. Health treatment provided by government, possibly a "Health Premium" tax paid on tobacco, drugs, alcohol, etc at point-of-sale to help cover costs. Different ta…

These are all great questions, and the purpose of government and democratic governance.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#197

Post by int_19h »

jolux wrote: post #135
lotsofpulp wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is inconsistent is not banning alcohol, since it by far causes more harm than marijuana or menthol.

Agreed. Unfortunately the social perception of alcohol is still at a place where banning it would be impossible, though. People don't even want to talk about making it more expensive. Alcohol still doesn't have nutritional labels in the US!

We have already banned alcohol in US a long time ago. That didn't last long, for very good reasons.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#198

Post by hackinthebochs »

bmmayer1 wrote: post #43

These policies are almost always celebrated on the basis of the goal of the policy but not the reality of the enforcement. What happens when someone gets busted with a menthol cigarette? Or, worse yet, selling a "loosie" menthol on the street, much like Eric Garner did? Is it possible that maybe there's a connection between over regulating people's choices and over policing peoples' lives?

For the good of black people, we're going to create a new class of criminal for which black people are overrepresented. For their own good, of course.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#200

Post by jolux »

int_19h wrote: post #197
jolux wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Unfortunately the social perception of alcohol is still at a place where banning it would be impossible, though. People don't even want to talk about making it more expensive. Alcohol still doesn't have nutritional labels in the US!

We have already banned alcohol in US a long time ago. That didn't last long, for very good reasons.

>That didn't last long, for very good reasons.

It was, and still would be extremely unpopular. The public health reason is as strong as it's ever been.

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