FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars • Hacker News Board

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#31

Post by nanidin » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:13 PM UTC

veilrap wrote: post #8

This just feels like a continuation of the failed war on drugs... I don't smoke, but I have no problem with allowing people to do so in private spaces. Why do we insist on micromanaging peoples lives?

It’s a public health issue on the same order of magnitude as COVID-19, but happening every year: “Cigarette smoking is responsible for more than 480,000 deaths per year in the United States, including more than 41,000 deaths resulting from secondhand smoke exposure. This is about one in five deaths annually, or 1,300 deaths every day.” [0]

[0] https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/fast...

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#32

Post by chmod600 » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:13 PM UTC

At what point do we say that we've just given up on the concept of freedom?

For what behaviors will we say: "That's a really bad idea, but go ahead and suffer the consequences if you want to do it"?

It seems we are moving in the direction of zero consequences first. By the time you have medical bills from smoking too much, you're on medicare, so it's not coming out of your children's inheritance.

And then after the consequences are pushed onto other people, we say that you can't have the freedom any more.

Seems like a good way to just eliminate freedom completely.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#33

Post by Syonyk » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:13 PM UTC

Bingo... my "modern press release Bingo card with all the CJT terms" is full. Can't just talk about how it's better for humans, have to ensure it's disproportionally going to impact disadvantaged groups and such.

I've no particular problem with banning flavored cigars, because they're quite vile as far as I'm concerned. I've had one or two by mistake or when someone gave me something, and if you're used to a good tobacco blend, the... whatever they put in them is not very good.

With cigarettes up around $8/box, though, I've no idea why more people don't switch to pipes. A pound of good pipe tobacco lasts for months of regular smoking (longer if it's infrequent), and $30 will get you a pound of some legitimately good stuff. You can get a good pipe and tobacco for the cost of a few weeks of cigarettes, it's a lot harder to chain smoke pipes, and an awful lot classier.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#34

Post by __blockcipher__ » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:14 PM UTC

awillen wrote: post #22

veilrap wrote: post #8

This just feels like a continuation of the failed war on drugs... I don't smoke, but I have no problem with allowing people to do so in private spaces. Why do we insist on micromanaging peoples lives?

Because our tax dollars pay for Medicare/Medicaid, so for those people who don't have private insurance, they're saddling society with the costs of their choices. In general I lean libertarian and agree that banning things isn't great, but if you want to make your own choices, you have to bear the costs of those choices. If you want to waive your right to government funded healthcare, then you ought to be able to mak…

That’s the problem with socialized medicine. Once you institute it now your body belongs to the state. You’re not allowed to put something deemed bad in your body because the “people” have to pay for it.

Prohibition is wrong. It’s not just unethical but impractical.

And congrats, now cops aren’t just going to claim they smell weed in my car, they’re going to claim they smell menthol too.

—

Also your “waive your right to gov funded healthcare” argument doesn’t make sense. Because I still have to pay for the other guy’s healthcare too.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#35

Post by veilrap » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:14 PM UTC

awillen wrote: post #22

veilrap wrote: post #8

This just feels like a continuation of the failed war on drugs... I don't smoke, but I have no problem with allowing people to do so in private spaces. Why do we insist on micromanaging peoples lives?

Because our tax dollars pay for Medicare/Medicaid, so for those people who don't have private insurance, they're saddling society with the costs of their choices. In general I lean libertarian and agree that banning things isn't great, but if you want to make your own choices, you have to bear the costs of those choices. If you want to waive your right to government funded healthcare, then you ought to be able to mak…

I generally feel similarly, but I'd rather go the taxation route than the control route. If people want to use hazardous substances, tax the substances to help fund the government subsidized health care.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#36

Post by bobbyi_settv » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:14 PM UTC

ketzo wrote: post #4

I’m extremely in favor of harm-reduction legislation in general, and I think this ban is a good idea overall. Flavors are effective at hooking young people in particular — lots of vaping research has shown that — and so get it outta here. Great. But man, “ban menthols because Black people like them” sure feels a little weird. Like, I get that’s not exactly what’s going on. But.. it’s a little bit what’s going on? I g…

As the press release says, menthol was "the last allowable flavor".

It's not the government banning one specific flavor because it is popular with black people. It is the government first banning every flavor except the one popular with black people and now circling back to make the rules uniform.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#37

Post by whatshisface » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:14 PM UTC

atlasunshrugged wrote: post #21

ketzo wrote: post #4

I’m extremely in favor of harm-reduction legislation in general, and I think this ban is a good idea overall. Flavors are effective at hooking young people in particular — lots of vaping research has shown that — and so get it outta here. Great. But man, “ban menthols because Black people like them” sure feels a little weird. Like, I get that’s not exactly what’s going on. But.. it’s a little bit what’s going on? I g…

Yeah, I'm sympathetic to the government wanting to protect the health of folks (or if you're a cynic like me, making sure that citizens are productive for longer and don't use as many healthcare resources) but this feels super paternalistic. Why not just dramatically increase the taxes so people can still choose to pay a high price if they want to?

>Why not just dramatically increase the taxes so people can still choose to pay a high price if they want to?

If you increased the taxes enough to change behavior, that would imply that people who wanted to smoke were made unable to. If all the people who want Menthols after your tax increase can still afford them, then it would not stop them, by definition. Consequently, vice taxes are always either ineffectual, or a ban that only applies to the poor.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#38

Post by ralusek » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:14 PM UTC

ketzo wrote: post #4

I’m extremely in favor of harm-reduction legislation in general, and I think this ban is a good idea overall. Flavors are effective at hooking young people in particular — lots of vaping research has shown that — and so get it outta here. Great. But man, “ban menthols because Black people like them” sure feels a little weird. Like, I get that’s not exactly what’s going on. But.. it’s a little bit what’s going on? I g…

Harm reduction? Why not ban alcohol? Why not cap cars at 55mph? People have lost money in the stock market, so I assume you'd like that banned as well. What is your limiting principle?

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#39

Post by Alupis » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:14 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #25

Alupis wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People will rationalize the choice (since it's still available) and end up spending more on the same item, which doesn't reduce usage - it just means the people using this item now have less money than before. So, if the goal is to remove the item entirely, it has to be banned from production/import rather than highly taxed. I don't really think bans are great either - we're all adults and can make our own choices. P…

The point isn’t just to tax, but to use the funds to create things that are significantly cheaper and reverse the effect. Taxing obviously affects the demand and cost of consumption but that money should go somewhere useful, ideally not into the ether that is government spending.

Your plan falls apart when it comes to the "vices" and "Sin Taxes", in my opinion.

You won't prevent people from indulging in their choice of "vice" or "sin", you'll just make those people more poor than before. People who smoke and are addicted won't suddenly substitute smoking with chewing bubble gum or eating salads simply because those are cheaper options...

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#40

Post by lmartel » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:14 PM UTC

ketzo wrote: post #4

I’m extremely in favor of harm-reduction legislation in general, and I think this ban is a good idea overall. Flavors are effective at hooking young people in particular — lots of vaping research has shown that — and so get it outta here. Great. But man, “ban menthols because Black people like them” sure feels a little weird. Like, I get that’s not exactly what’s going on. But.. it’s a little bit what’s going on? I g…

You can make the opposite point with the same logic though: "the powerful, dangerous tobacco industry was given a loophole in the flavored cigarette ban allowing them to prey disproportionately on vulnerable Black populations."