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The dispassionate developer

blog.ploeh.dk

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Re: The dispassionate developer

#191

Post by nocman »

nickjj wrote: post #154

I like the article overall but I'm not sold on the passion ethos section as it was written. The author hints that they wouldn't want a surgeon who is passionate because they should be making rational decisions. But IMO passion isn't all about making an on the spot emotional decision without thinking things through. It's about their willingness to continue learning and advancing their craft because they have the motiv…

I hear what you are saying, but in fairness to the author of the article, he did say he would like people to care about their vocation.

Also, I'd rather have a surgeon who was skilled, cared about his profession, and also was not burned out from overexertion trying to be "passionate" about his job.

I think the medical field in general (not unlike the software development field in general) often undervalues people's time outside of work. It's fair to say that some fields require more investment from those that work in them, but in every field there is a point when investing even more of your time and effort is counter-productive.

Re: The dispassionate developer

#192

Post by giantg2 »

oblio wrote: post #189
giantg2 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm constrained to my location because my wife won't consider relocating.

Try something different. A more popular tech, a more popular stack, a slight twist in what you use them for, etc.

I recently switched to a team with a newer stack. It doesn't give me the chance to get good because they have me constantly switching between stacks or doing no-code tasks.

Re: The dispassionate developer

#193

Post by orangecat »

indigochill wrote: post #168
deergomoo wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're having a bit of a debate about this internally as the company I work for is struggling to hire good candidates. For a while we've had a take-home test and that has increased our success rate somewhat. But as you say, we really don't want to lay unreasonable expectations on people who may have other obligations, but we've had many people in the past who've interviewed very well but turned out to be completely in…

Our take-home obviously isn't a trade secret, so we have three trivial problems in ours: 1. Write code that takes in a rectangle, coordinate, and distance, and tells if that coordinate is within the distance of the rectangle. 2. Determine whether a string has permutations which are palindromes. (I'm of the opinion this one is too simple, but it's been fascinating seeing what mental gymnastics some developers will go…

2. Determine whether a string has permutations which are palindromes.

If I understand this correctly, it's the sort of problem that's simple if you see the trick and hard if you don't. I'd expect many candidates to think that you actually want them to generate all the permutations and then get bogged down in recursion.

#1 is good, and #3 sounds interesting.

Re: The dispassionate developer

#194

Post by yellowapple »

> The idea of free software, for example, has led to a software economy where you, the user, are no longer the customer, but the product.

No it hasn't, unless the author is conflating free software with free beer. Free software, if anything, leads to the opposite: empowering users to take stronger ownership over the programs they use.

Re: The dispassionate developer

#195

Post by Viliam1234 »

Tabular-Iceberg wrote: post #119
SamuelAdams wrote: post #11

> Most people don't heed advice given for free, but if they pay dearly for it, they tend to pay attention. 100% this. I've seen consultants get paid $250 an hour to simply listen to what the team is saying and regurgitate that to management. But it's more trusted than their own employees because the consultant is "independent".

I thought I could use this to my advantage and game the system. I convinced management we needed to hire a prestigious consultant to get us out of the tight spot we were in. They were absolutely ecstatic about this great visionary I had brought in and all the genius insights he had (which was predictably just what the team had been saying for moths). But it still came back to bite me in the end. When the consultant w…

> the most insulting thing was hearing a twisted version of the consultant's advice used as ammunition against the team, questioning its competence.

That's the advantage of having an expert that is no longer there. You can make him agree with whatever you want.

Once there was an expert invited to solve a problem at a company I worked for. Towards the end of his short visit, we met in a kitchen and talked for a while. I asked him what he thought about the problem we had, and he told me his opinion. After he left, there was a meeting where the managers told us what the expert thought. It was almost the opposite of what he told me. Was he telling different conclusions to different people? Or were the managers just lying? No way to find out, of course.

Re: The dispassionate developer

#196

Post by datavirtue »

indigochill wrote: post #168
deergomoo wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're having a bit of a debate about this internally as the company I work for is struggling to hire good candidates. For a while we've had a take-home test and that has increased our success rate somewhat. But as you say, we really don't want to lay unreasonable expectations on people who may have other obligations, but we've had many people in the past who've interviewed very well but turned out to be completely in…

Our take-home obviously isn't a trade secret, so we have three trivial problems in ours: 1. Write code that takes in a rectangle, coordinate, and distance, and tells if that coordinate is within the distance of the rectangle. 2. Determine whether a string has permutations which are palindromes. (I'm of the opinion this one is too simple, but it's been fascinating seeing what mental gymnastics some developers will go…

Closes IDE and feels relieved to have dodged that bullet.

Re: The dispassionate developer

#197

Post by WalterSear »

notsuoh wrote: post #114
WalterSear wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for the same reason we don't offer take home interview assignments: it's biased against people who don't have a whole lot of extra time at home. This is just another single dimension hiring credential, that will result in limiting your hiring pool to people like yourself. My code ran on 70+ million machines last month, but I've come to decline any timed or proctored technical interviews. It's not that I'm too good…

We look at CV and then have an interview process. We don't do proctored timed interview coding questions in the usual sense, though we may walk through code. I understand the reluctance of a senior engineer such as yourself to go though any interview process, but to be honest I've interviewed plenty of engineers with decades of experience and many have completely fallen flat. Interviews aren't just about technical kn…

Yes, that's very different, and much more reasonable than most places that don't do take home technical examinations.

There's obviously a fundamental necessity to evaluate a candidate's technical skills directly, rather than relying on credentials - my issue is with the false expedience and conflationism of timed and artificially performative technical evaluations, and my personal difficulties with the social requirements inherent to them.

Re: The dispassionate developer

#198

Post by not2b »

fbleibel wrote: post #173
elanning wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of senior engineers would refuse to do a fizzbuzz. I'm really not seeing the problem here.

On the contrary, I think this is a huge red flag. Just go along with the interviewer, maybe highlight that this is typically and entry-level problem, but solve it. You really don't want to hire someone who not only can't solve fizzbuzz, but also refuses to hear about it and complain that it's 'beneath them' (what a annoying attitude!).

Depends. It could be an indication that there's been a miscommunication and the interview is for a much more junior position than expected, so I would expect a more senior person to push back. Fizzbuzz tests "can this person program at all?" For a more senior position, best to start with something harder and more job-related; back off to fizzbuzz if the interviewee can't do the hard stuff.

Re: The dispassionate developer

#199

Post by nocman »

danans wrote: post #57

> ... employers want employees who are passionate about their craft. > ... I'd like such people to care about their vocation, but I'd prefer that they keep a cool head and make as rational decisions as possible. > Why should programmers be passionate? While I agree with the gist of the article, the author should realize that "passionate" as used in this context is effectively synonymous with "cares", and is only used…

> the author should realize that "passionate" as used in this context is effectively synonymous with "cares"

I think that largely depends on who is using the word. Personally, I'm sick of seeing the word "passionate" thrown around in job listings. It comes off as "we really need to use this buzzword", and 90% of the time feels disingenuous.

Much of the time I end up interpreting it as "someone who is willing to work a lot of uncompensated extra hours". I say this as a person who very much cares about their craft, and wants to do excellent work as much as it is within my power to do so. I also do spend a lot of my free time learning new things related to my profession.

I'm not saying everyone who uses that word is intending to take advantage of their future employees desire to excel. It just seems like most of the times I see it, the job listing ends up being one that I'm less likely to be interested in.

Re: The dispassionate developer

#200

Post by WrtCdEvrydy »

> The development manager immediately shot down that idea: "If we do that, they'll leave us once they have the certification."

This one is so common, it's a staple. Very few places I have worked will pay for certs because after that the employee is worth more so there's no budget for the cert + the requisite pay bump that having such a cert deserves.

I don't know how to fix it, but I wish one day I can convince other people that training is the path to unlocking better teams versus just more headcount. The salary for one senior dev can be split 5 ways into an existing team and given enough knowledge can make you more than having an extra dev.

I read Bullshit Jobs and realized why this might be the issue... reports are a sign of power, the more you have, the more power you have, so in order to advance your career, you must be willing to sacrifice the place you work at by hiring more and more people under you.

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