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Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

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Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#191

Post by ben_w »

foolmeonce wrote: post #143
ben_w wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. How many of these points can be achieved, and to what relative quality, with greenhouses? 2. Given sunlight is ~1 gigawatt per square kilometre, and given the light level plants need, to the extent that this allows winter production of: (a) staple crops such as wheat, rice, potatoes: this will need implementation of all the improvements to the global power grid that eco-optimists like me call for and which eco-pes…

I would generally agree, but I see solving the problems caused by "cash crops" as very good and not unlike solar and wind solving the problems of extremes first. If it can replace the 5% of food that is currently handled terribly and has an enormously oversized footprint then that is great. I am not horrified by the ramifications of my staple rice coming from Asia on a slow boat which I then consume 100% of. I am hor…

You’ve accidentally triple-posted, I assume this happened when you tried edit a typo?

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#192

Post by wil421 »

ttn wrote: post #101

Disclaimer: I've grown tomatoes, strawberries and weed indoors with artificial lighting. As long as there is no shocking event like global drought or famine I do not think vertical farming or indoor farming will be a norm anytime soon as it takes massive, massive amount of energy/capital. That being said, the moment we figure out using fusion energy, conventional farming will most probably vanish. Also R&D on agricul…

Someone claimed a while back most of these vertical farms would switch to growing weed once it became legal in the state(s) they have farms.

I’m not sure if any other crop beside weed would turn a significant profit. You might be able to get a government contract to grow some other controlled substance and turn a small profit.

The only other way it would work would be if it was a co-op owned by residents or subsidized by the local government.

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#193

Post by elhuddy »

simonebrunozzi wrote: post #115
qayxc wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but the real soil somehow must add a lot of flavor Correlation ≠ causation. I did some experiments years ago growing food under various conditions. The difference in taste is dominated by two factors: variety and time of harvest. Most industrial fruit is harvested long before it's ripe and ripens artificially in warehouses. This is the main factor that determines taste as this is the process in which taste develops…

Not always true. Tomato from Naples (one of the richest soils in the world, due to volcanic activity e.g. Pompeii) ≠ organic tomato you buy in a good supermarket in the US.

This is also demonstrably false in the wine industry. Soil has a direct impact on the outcome of your grapes, e.g. fields that have water runoff from mountainous/rocky areas produce wine that tastes more of minerals.

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#196

Post by tokai »

achow wrote: post #16
Barrin92 wrote: post #3

I'm gonna be honest I do not understand the economics and logic of vertical farming. You're basically putting plants in expensive, complicated buildings operated by extremely expensive and complicated robots, then you turn energy from the sun into electricity and back into light so you can grow the plants when you can just... farm in sunny places instead? Plants have the ability to turn sunlight into tasty nutrients…

Earth: 29% Land, 71% Ocean Land: 71% Habitable, 29% Not Agricultural: 2.3% of all habitable land Livestock: 8% of all habitable land Looking at the stats, your question is very valid. We can drastically increase food production by marginally decreasing land dedicated for livestock and/or utilizing unused habitable land. Source: https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2019/11/Global-land-use-g...

In Denmark 62% of all land is used for agriculture. That's not only the habitable but all of Denmark's area. Any area that is able to produce is already in use.

https://lbst.dk/fileadmin/user_upload/NaturErhverv/Filer/Lan...

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#197

Post by dwild »

KaiserPro wrote: post #46
user568439 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- 250x less water - Sun/heat/light maybe needs to be converted but it's always used in the right amount for each crop - Controlled environments protected from plagues, floods, fires... Crops are not lost due to uncontrollable events and a lot of savings in chemicals to protect them from bugs - Saving the cost of SCM (transport and intermediaries) which is sometimes much bigger than producing. In farming is actually a…

> - Sun/heat/light maybe needs to be converted but it's always used in the right amount for each crop yes, but you are spending money and carbon on re-creating sunlight. > Controlled environments protected from plagues, floods, fires... Crops are not lost due to uncontrollable events and a lot of savings in chemicals to protect them from bugs Monocultures are spectacularly fragile. You have to be extraordinarily care…

> yes, but you are spending money and carbon on re-creating sunlight.

Unlike farming in Africa and shipping it around the world? Vertical farming allow to farm specifically where it is needed.

What about freezing it to allow to get it all year long?

> What agriculture really needs is an effective way to make and keep decent soil.

Then go for it, see you in next year YC. If that really what it need then you won't have trouble selling it.

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#198

Post by ac29 »

deeviant wrote: post #187
user568439 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- 250x less water - Sun/heat/light maybe needs to be converted but it's always used in the right amount for each crop - Controlled environments protected from plagues, floods, fires... Crops are not lost due to uncontrollable events and a lot of savings in chemicals to protect them from bugs - Saving the cost of SCM (transport and intermediaries) which is sometimes much bigger than producing. In farming is actually a…

Average cost of acre of farm land in US: $3160 Average cost of a cheap warehouse in US (this is being generous as the cost is likely far higher for a vertical farm) $20 square ft [1] Thus, Land/building cost standard farming method: $3160 per acre[2] Land/building cost of equivalent vertical farm: $871200 per acre Which is 275x higher. Once again, using warehouse costs is being generous to vertical farms. It's likely…

You're ignoring the fact that vertical farms have layers. In this article, they are growing 14 layers, so to match the output of one acre of farmland requires 1/14 of an acre of building, if all else is the same. Also, vertical farms can produce 365 days a year, which conventional farms can not. Other factors such as precise control of climate, nutrients, and pests will also increase the output of vertical farms.

I think in the end, you are right - vertical farms will be more expensive. But its going to be nothing like 275x as expensive.

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#199

Post by ac29 »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #167
pas wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow the water used by [almond and whatnot] farmers is a problem in CA. Rain is great, and Earth's water cycle is closed, but plants evaporate water but you won't get it back as rain immediately. Plus if you install irrigation you are taking water away from somewhere that would likely not evaporate that fast. (Eg from a river.) And if you also happen to have drainage, (eg if you converted a wetland area), then you…

Most crops aren't irrigated.

I came here to dispute this, but when I looked it up, it appears to be true, at least in the US, where irrigated farms produce only 39% of farm products (in $). That being said, its still a nontrivial percentage, and irrigation for agriculture accounts for 80% of the nations water consumption.

https://www.ers.usda.gov/amber-waves/2017/june/understanding...

Re: Europe's Biggest Vertical Farm Will Be Powered by Wind and Planted by Robots

#200

Post by dumbfoundded »

wil421 wrote: post #192
ttn wrote: post #101

Disclaimer: I've grown tomatoes, strawberries and weed indoors with artificial lighting. As long as there is no shocking event like global drought or famine I do not think vertical farming or indoor farming will be a norm anytime soon as it takes massive, massive amount of energy/capital. That being said, the moment we figure out using fusion energy, conventional farming will most probably vanish. Also R&D on agricul…

Someone claimed a while back most of these vertical farms would switch to growing weed once it became legal in the state(s) they have farms. I’m not sure if any other crop beside weed would turn a significant profit. You might be able to get a government contract to grow some other controlled substance and turn a small profit. The only other way it would work would be if it was a co-op owned by residents or subsidize…

The only pressure to grow weed inside is quality but premium flower is losing market share quickly. Every extracted product (vapes, edibles, drinks, topicals) is created from biomass which is best grown outdoors for the cheapest price.

There also isn't really that much weed needed as people think. Outdoors you can get roughly ~1,500lbs per acre of dried flower. In Colorado 2017, roughly 20,000lbs of cannabis was consumed per month. If you project based on population, the whole USA only needs about 7,000 acres harvested, annually. Maybe they'll be some loss so let's say 15,000 acres would safely cover it. In the USA, there's over 90,000,000 acres of corn grown a year. Cannabis is actually a very small market from the farming side and the indoor grows will very much be a niche market.

As for the general economics, vertical farming will never make sense until either the underlying economics of farming change (maybe from climate change) or energy becomes free.

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