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Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete Hyper-V on Linux

theregister.com

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Re: Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete Hyper-V on Linux

#191

Post by ryneandal »

rbanffy wrote: post #149
DashAnimal wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GPU decoding support for video streaming in Chrome/Firefox was enough for me to switch back. I know this JUST got added to Firefox but afaik, this Nvidia proprietary drivers don't support this.

This is one of the reasons I actively avoid buying Nvidia hardware - their Linux support is borderline criminal.

I dislike their shady practices as much as anyone else, but calling their lack of driver support on a platform outside of their market segment "borderline criminal" is wildly hyperbolic.

Re: Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete Hyper-V on Linux

#192

Post by ryneandal »

Joeri wrote: post #21
harha wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coming from Mac and Linux, I sometimes need to use Windows and I'm always surprised how they managed to make it so incredibly difficult to use and bloated. A minimal version of Windows along with a good package manager and a UX closer to Windows 2000 (or at least without the whole Control Panel / Settings App confusion) would be amazing.

Supposedly windows 10X will be that thing. I have to say I find the settings / control panel dichotomy issue overblown. I rarely need to go into control panel anymore, and pretty much never without it being a clickthrough from the new settings app.

> I have to say I find the settings / control panel dichotomy issue overblown

Agreed. The task bar search finds the setting I'm looking for about 99% of the time.

Re: Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete Hyper-V on Linux

#193

Post by chooseaname »

aunty_helen wrote: post #3

>Windows 10 is on a path to becoming a hybrid Windows/Linux system This sounds promising, something closer to OSX would give apple competition for devs like myself that want a linux based system and a fluffy "it-just-works" gui

I get poopoo'd every time I say it, but I think eventually Windows will be a UI on top of Linux.

Re: Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete Hyper-V on Linux

#194

Post by likesftereppl99 »

transpute wrote: post #180

If this reaches production status (e.g. with a new Hyper-V Hardware Qualification List and HHQL logo program like WHQL), it could be the biggest news for Linux since Dell started shipping a laptop with pre-installed Linux. Such a logo program could provide OEMs with a test suite for Hyper-V with Linux hardware drivers, which means Microsoft could start contributing test cases to upstream Linux projects like CKI. Most…

Ok, sure.

Given Xen is battle tested at scale and k8s/etc for microservices, why bother to learn to manage this?

Re: Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete Hyper-V on Linux

#195

Post by pydry »

kubanczyk wrote: post #8
aunty_helen wrote: post #3

>Windows 10 is on a path to becoming a hybrid Windows/Linux system This sounds promising, something closer to OSX would give apple competition for devs like myself that want a linux based system and a fluffy "it-just-works" gui

The ecosystem is already there for devs, except for those interested with directly interacting with their laptop's hardware. I've migrated from MBP to Win10 WSL three months ago and it's like a breath of fresh air for general $DayJob backend CRUD-like work. I'd still prefer a Linux laptop, but WSL is so much closer to a real Linux box. I don't think I touched PowerShell or any .BAT stuff even once.

WSL had horrendous I/O performance last time I tried it and it couldn't run some pretty basic stuff (e.g. headless chrome).

Virtual box is a better experience if you wanna run Linux on windows IMO.

Re: Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete Hyper-V on Linux

#196

Post by 013a »

phkahler wrote: post #173
aunty_helen wrote: post #3

>Windows 10 is on a path to becoming a hybrid Windows/Linux system This sounds promising, something closer to OSX would give apple competition for devs like myself that want a linux based system and a fluffy "it-just-works" gui

>> This sounds promising, something closer to OSX would give apple competition for devs like myself that want a linux based system and a fluffy "it-just-works" gui No, don't. That seems to be what they want. It's not about running linux apps on Windows. It's about blending the two so that even Linux apps are dependent on Microsft APIs and such. What is the point of bringing native DX12 to linux if not that? BTW they…

> or just dont care because they get to take in money for every user of MS/linux hybrid.

Oh my god, the horror. Are you suggesting that I could, I dare to think it, pay Microsoft some money for a working operating system that meets all of my needs? Someone needs to call the EU and get this shut down, this is unacceptable behavior.

Look, this fear out of the linux community is why I'm hesitant to immerse myself in it. Lets say I decide to build a linux app that is dependent on Microsoft APIs, as you fear: what's stopping you from just not using it? If Microsoft allows this, and we're legal with the licensing, what gives you the right to (1) control how I build the software I want to build, and (2) control what kinds of software my users want to use?

Well, I think if we dig deep enough, the reason is some variant of "because then developers will take the easy route and use the generally pretty good and well supported Microsoft APIs, and the open linux APIs will flounder". Which is a weird combination of 'not invented here' and self-loathing from the linux community that is startlingly unhealthy. Microsoft is making an effort toward openness and interoperability here; we can argue their intentions all day, maybe they're good or bad, but its (some members of) the linux community who's saying "no, we don't want to be open, we want to live in Linux world and pretend like no one else exists." Sounds a lot like 90s-00s Microsoft.

And what's the worst case scenario? Microsoft suddenly removes their mask and admits they were the evildoer we all feared them to be, like a scooby-doo villain? Ok? They tried pulling that with the browser ecosystem, and Office, and Java, and the world is still spinning. Linux is healthier than ever.

Re: Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete Hyper-V on Linux

#197

Post by 013a »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #179
derefr wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is the point of bringing native DX12 to linux if not that? Oh, easy: it’s so games written for DX12 on Windows—that are currently run on Linux using Wine—can have a direct, low-overhead GPU driver path, rather than Wine needing to translate DX12 calls into OpenGL/Vulkan calls first. Of course, if you’re a game-engine developer, you know you can achieve the same by just writing your engine to target Vulkan inst…

Right but the larger point is that it's less healthy long term since Microsoft controls DX, full stop. So it makes direct Vulcan support less appealing.

Sure, but its been, like, thirty years. The biggest advancement specifically Linux gaming has had in that time is a highly optimized DX interpolation layer from Valve (Proton, an extension of WINE).

The linux community seems to believe that the world will just naturally bias toward open systems given enough time. Maybe Vulcan will own the world in a hundred years; we'll wait it out. But there's no evidence that this is the case. People just want their problems solved; they want working games, or a freakin' powerful office suite, or whatever. That's why Linux succeeded in the server in the first place; it wasn't (mostly) its libre licensing; it was just better at a lot of things, which led software to be written for it, which entrenched its position.

We can solve problems and push for openness at the same time. Linux can have DX and HyperV and whatever, while we still make open solutions better. Vulcan may actually own the gaming world one day; its very good. But I doubt LibreOffice will; Microsoft Office is just too good. Why not try to do both?

Re: Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete Hyper-V on Linux

#198

Post by transpute »

likesftereppl99 wrote: post #194
transpute wrote: post #180

If this reaches production status (e.g. with a new Hyper-V Hardware Qualification List and HHQL logo program like WHQL), it could be the biggest news for Linux since Dell started shipping a laptop with pre-installed Linux. Such a logo program could provide OEMs with a test suite for Hyper-V with Linux hardware drivers, which means Microsoft could start contributing test cases to upstream Linux projects like CKI. Most…

Ok, sure. Given Xen is battle tested at scale and k8s/etc for microservices, why bother to learn to manage this?

> why bother to learn to manage this?

Even if primarily adopted by existing Microsoft customers familiar with Hyper-V, this would benefit Xen, KVM and any Linux distro running on the same hardware targets.

If a theoretical HHQL motivates OEMs to prove that Linux drivers work in a Hyper-V root partition on new hardware, with driver fixes upstreamed to the Linux mainline kernel, then everyone wins.

There is also ongoing work for nested virtualization, to enable KVM, Xen or Hyper-V to be a bare-metal (L0) or a nested (L1) hypervisor, e.g. in a cloud environment where the bare-metal hypervisor cannot be changed by customers.

These interoperability improvements increase hardware support for hypervisors, which can then compete at multiple architectural layers. Users can choose based on optimization of the HL0-HL1-VM-App stack which works best for their specific workload.

Re: Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete Hyper-V on Linux

#199

Post by withinboredom »

qalmakka wrote: post #178
withinboredom wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you got it all wrong :p. It’s not a “standard Hyper-V virtual machine” you can’t make one from scratch.

With "standard Hyper-V virtual machine" I mean that's like every other VM, because it runs under its own instance of vmwp.exe, spawned by vmms.exe, like every other one you may have in the system.

Now I want to take those executables apart and see if it does any special handling.

Re: Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete Hyper-V on Linux

#200

Post by ghostpepper »

cycloptic wrote: post #144
SQueeeeeL wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It probably means they want to leverage out the existing open source VM software so they can make one with proprietary Windows support (at some point down the line). There is a long history of this in the past with Microsoft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis... Everyone should be afraid of this, even the Microsoft employees commenting here. Look at the 737 MAX post on the front page for ano…

>Everyone should be afraid Please don't FUD like this. Proprietary systems on top of Linux are nothing new and Microsoft certainly isn't the first company to have done it. If you have some real proof of their business plans then let's hear that rather than encouraging speculation and fearmongering.

Generally proprietary systems aren't merged into the kernel though. That's not the same as shipping a closed-source, proprietary user space application.
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