Why would you hire an $80k Indian when you could easily hire an $80k American from somewhere with lower costs of living than Silicon Valley.
I would wager an $80k Indian will be the far better engineer.
I'd take that bet
Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate
191–200 of 225 posts
Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate
#192Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Finally, there might be a lot going on right now, but why haven't companies outsourced sooner when there was nothing stopping them (even visas were easier to come by before Trump)? I believe they have contemplated it, and changed their minds for good reason. Outsourcing to India is not trivial. It's a bit like outsourcing to China, where you _must_ have a deep understanding of the market and the players, so you don…
It seems that some US engineers believe that their jobs are being "taken" from them by "unqualified", or "substandard", or "underpaid" immigrant engineers, and that getting a work permit in the US is something almost "trivial". You(or others) may be getting mixed up between complaints of legal vs illegal immigration. Illegal immigration does tend to displace American workers for forms of manual labor like on farms, r…
> You(or others) may be getting mixed up between complaints of legal vs illegal immigration. Illegal immigration does tend to displace American workers for forms of manual labor like on farms, roofing, etc.
Let's say that it is true, and that the US job market is larger for blue collar vs. white collar work seekers. Then one must ask why there isn't a ban on seasonal workers yet.
> Legal immigration like H1B tends to be gamed by large corporations to get cheaply paid workers for contacting companies.
That's not true. Large IT outsourcing companies, yes. FAANG, no. H1B salaries are publicly available, so it is easy to prove it.
> If talent was truly global, they wouldn't do this.
Quite literally the opposite. Since talent is global, there simply are good engineers everywhere, and bringing them to the US market is an advantage.
Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate
#193This is kind of about whether Uber views itself as a FAANG type software company (software as core competency, strong recruiting brand for tech-hub engineers) or a more operational business (software as a cost center). Most companies end up having to choose one. If you're the latter, you absolutely don't try competing with FAANG for the same talent. (I do think Amazon is a rare example of a company that both develope…
The real question for me is why would Uber investors put the kind of management that view software as a cost center? In this context that's a pessimistic signal for their future, at least for their current valuation, if not the sign of a death spiral.
Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate
#194Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sure, scammers are abound and the bad to good ratio is pretty high but due to the population size, the number of good developers is high as well.
> the bad to good ratio is pretty high but due to the population size This is not how ratios work.
Can you elaborate why that statement is incorrect?
If B/G is high, G/B is low. But if P is a very high number G/B * P must be a decently high number as well.
Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate
#195This is kind of about whether Uber views itself as a FAANG type software company (software as core competency, strong recruiting brand for tech-hub engineers) or a more operational business (software as a cost center). Most companies end up having to choose one. If you're the latter, you absolutely don't try competing with FAANG for the same talent. (I do think Amazon is a rare example of a company that both develope…
The real question for me is why would Uber investors put the kind of management that view software as a cost center? In this context that's a pessimistic signal for their future, at least for their current valuation, if not the sign of a death spiral.
Because they are competing against competitors with equal level of product but with majority od developers in low labor cost countries. Thats a recipe for sure loss.
Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate
#196Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Uber is preparing for a death spiral as their financial backing runs out and they need to shrink to the profitable markets. Many of their top markets have ruled their drivers are employees (or requiring similar compensation/benefits), except Brazil. I'm unsure if they can remain anywhere near their current size (versus the headcount of a traditional livery service) based on that regulatory environment, even with Mc…
Unintended side effect of this is to prevent competitive entry. No other TNC will be able to achieve enough density from day 1 to run at the wage floor without huge amounts of VC. That alone should make people suspicious of this legislation. In the long run, this is really, really good for Uber/Lyft.
Yes, its basically a potential way for uber and lyft to lock themselves in as the only 2 players in the US market.
Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate
#197Earlier quoted context omitted.
You can live decently in the valley on a lot less than 300k. Speaking from experience, even 90k is perfectly comfortable. Based on the salaries of my friends in SF, $150k is a very reasonable salary that allows a fantastic lifestyle.
Probably single with no family to support, living in a shoebox, with no car. Sure if you want to spend 60% of your salary on "housing" in SF, $150K is perfectly fine...
Why do you need to live in SF?
Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate
#198Everybody's talking about the cost side of this and not the benefit: customer intimacy. India is a huge market for many tech companies, and having more on-the-ground presence means they'll innovate in ways more appropriate to the Indian market.
And compete with the homegrown Ola? Severly doubt it.
Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate
#199I am an Indian new grad currently working in Bangalore. Almost all my classmates have a 15-20 lakh(20-25k dollars) job. And that's a lot of money for most of us straight out of university. I don't see why companies shouldn't move a part of their operations to India since they can save a hell lot of money by hiring here. The sentiment that India is just good for outsourcing trivial jobs is changing quite dramatically I would say. There are 3 factors which can be a problem: language barrier,reduced talent pool and cultural differences.
Regarding language, most of my peers have decent English skills given we have spent like all of school life learning the language(more years are spent learning English than the native language). Most of us also spent a lot of time watching American/British shows in English given the lackluster scene of Indian TV. Yes we can't converse like natives, but I bet Indians can speak English better than most other nations whose second/third language is English.
As far as talent pool is considered, yes we aren't anywhere close to Silicon Valley but I think the gap will reduce in the coming years given the proliferation of the internet. And the explosion of cheap Internet has been a relatively recent event, thanks to "Jio" - a Telecom conglomerate. There is no reason someone who understands English and is persistent enough can't learn basic principles of software engineering from the Internet. Hell just leetcoding is enough to get a job in America(from what I have seen on r/cscareerquestions) Also given India has 4-5 times more students than America, there is a larger pool to sieve from. India already has a more rigorous mathematics education programme(thanks to the russians) and Indians are increasingly getting good at competitive coding competitions. I feel the quality of developers in India is only going to get better with time and software giants can surely set up more and more offices here.
Lastly, cultural differences obviously exist and will continue to exist. But I don't think they are much of an impediment to the work culture. Like most my friends are religiously apathetic and believe in democratic, liberal values unlike say the Chinese. Indians have been working in America for decades and they have done quite well I would say. Cultural differences are reducing with time thanks to multiculturalism and the internet.
India might very well be on the verge of a software boom, thanks to newfound awareness in the youth thanks to cheap Internet and an overall better education than previously. Hell china could do all of this without much help from the west. Now they have their own Tencent, Baidu, Alibaba. India has a lot of handholding from the west and Indian expats, surely we can develop quality software in the coming future as well.
Re: Uber CEO Wants to Shift More Engineering Jobs to India, Sparking Internal Debate
#200Earlier quoted context omitted.
Maybe Indian tech labor isn't that cheap. But Silicon Valley tech labor is very expensive (perhaps overpriced!). Maybe the latter is the key factor...
I would argue there is no such thing as overpriced labor when its the market that sets the price. You will never get a Mercedes for the price of a Honda. So be skeptical when a politician or mega corp manager utters the words "labor shortage" - there is no such thing.
So what concept is the word "shortage" supposed to communicate?