Live data from Hacker News

Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

twitter.com

191–200 of 343 posts

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#191
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair the bar to be considered a white supermacist is very low in today's political correctness environment.

And what is your evidence of that?

The bar is so low that Jewish (like Stephen Miller) and even black (e.g. Ben Carson, Candace Owens) people are frequently called white supremacists. So low that people saying "It's ok to be white" were called white supremacists.

Does the term have any meaning now, or has it become simply a slur for anyone whose political beliefs differ, like "communist" or "terrorist" before it?

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone I know, including me? There is _no_ shortage of workers for virtually any industry. There is a shortage of people willing to work for submarket rates.

How does that work without your favorite hole-in-the-wall restraunt closing down because almost no one wants to pay $50 more for a bowl of ramen noodles every week?

I'm sorry, I'd rather not contribute to someones near poverty living so that I could enjoy ramen for $20 cheaper. The argument seems cruel if I understand it correctly - "Cheap, exploitable labour and suffering that goes with it is good because it lowers prices for ME". If that's the argument than I cannot get behind it.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#193
post #78

There are 2 sides to every coin. It can be frustrating/demoralizing to American software developers as well, when they go to interview for a job, to see they are competing with an absolute flood of Indian and Chinese H1Bs. Then, when all of your interviewers are Chinese and Indian as well and you don't get the job, you sort of feel like the victim of favoritism and that you've been pushed out of your own country's in…

Well, wasn't the US about capitalism, free market and all that they have been lecturing others about in a rather holier than thou fashion. What gives ?

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#194
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair the bar to be considered a white supermacist is very low in today's political correctness environment.

And what is your evidence of that?

I've personally been accused of being a neo-nazi on reddit because my username includes the number 88, which is only there because my wife's birth year is 1988 and I'm not creative enough to think of a unique name. I've seen the same frivolous accusations thrown around here as well.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This policy change will have a far-reaching impact on immigrants' lives, but it will also have an impact on the lives of non-immigrants. In light of that, you cannot reasonably argue that non-immigrants (or immigrant citizens) should be silent about H1Bs. Moreover, an individual can collaborate constructively with immigrant coworkers on a personal level, while also advocating politically for a more restrictive immigr…

How is it in the collective interests of Americans to block highly educated and productive people from taking jobs in the US? The economy is not a zero-sum game. The administration still lets in temporary agricultural workers - who work for incredibly low wages that very much undercut jobs for Americans - and yet keeps out people who work in fields where there is a shortage of qualified workers and who earn relativel…

I'm not saying it is, nor that it isn't.

I'm saying we shouldn't hurl epithets at people for commenting on political concerns that affect them, just because we don't like their point of view. There's a difference between "anti-immigrant" and "anti-H1B."

Look up the definition of "bigotry." People on both sides of the issue should be tolerant of reasonable commentary from the other side.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#196
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really, we should just enforce the original intent of the H1B. 1. Companies that import labor when they had a perfectly acceptable local candidate should face severe fines, and Justice should be given a real budget for running these investigations as a matter of course. And the burden of proof to demonstrate you needed to import labor should be pretty high. If you don't do this, then H1B abuse will happen. 2. Compani…

Companies that import labor when they had a perfectly acceptable local candidate should face severe fines... Who defines acceptable local candidate? Anyone who has interviewed candidates knows that are always a lot of local candidates who think that they are qualified for the job who you don't want for any of a variety of reasons. I don't want the government telling me that I can't hire the sysadmin I want because th…

> Who defines acceptable local candidate?... sysadmin... java

I think your question already demonstrates the deviation of the H1B from its original intent.

Bringing in a generic sys admin or generic java programmers on an H1B is visa abuse. Sorry, but neither of those is a special skill and neither of those jobs is an appropriate use of the H1B. There are more than enough sys admin and java programmer candidates in the USA above a certain (quite low) price tag.

When it comes to H1B's intended purpose, I would expect something like: "we need someone who is expert in this aspect of the Java garbage collector and knows the internals of the X framework. Our candidate has made significant open source contributions to both. There is no one in this country with expertise in both who is currently looking for a position." Or, "we need someone who has extensive experience working in the insurance sector and also has experience being the senior developer on a large project written in Haskell. We can't find anyone who has passed the first actuarial exam and who has also been a senior engineer at a firm using Haskell". That sort of thing. The H1B was designed for __skilled immigration__. Not warm body java school kids.

I get your point that this is difficult to evaluate. That's why one of my proposals was to provide Justice with plenty of funding so that they have the resources to spot-check cases with high accuracy.

NB: I absolutely would support a new midskill immigration program for things like sys admins and generic java app developers. But the H1B program was never really meant for those sorts of jobs. The H1B program has radically diverged from its initial intent, and that is why the abuse of H1B workers happens. And, in fact, this is why even within H1B you don't see nearly as much of the abuse that happens in tech within other sectors (academia, medicine). CS has been democratized over the past 20 years and our H1B criteria in CS needs to catch up.

Oh, and BTW, H1B abuse also fucks over actually skilled immigrants. I've been trying to hire a PhD with huge amounts of high-quality open source contributions, a bunch of publications, and there's a whole class of very particular algorithms that literally no one except him understands. He's literally the only person in the world who is qualified from day 1 to lead this heavy-R R&D project. This is what the H1B is for. But apparently his qualifications are equivalent to low-level Accenture drones doing sys admin and java app dev. I just don't buy that a properly equipped Justice wouldn't be able to hire someone who knows the difference...

If we want a midskill immigration program, we should just create it from scratch. That'll be easier than morphing the H1B into 80% of what a midskill program should look like.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I for one am ecstatic about this. I want less competition for my role, not more. It is hard to compete when the top 5% of every other economy comes in and crowds me out. Factory workers in 80s and 90s said the same thing. All it did was price American factory workers out of the labor pool completely, moving jobs elsewhere. American greed and I-got-mine-fuck-you attitude is exactly why US will not remain a global su…

I don't want America to be a global superpower. Too expensive. I'd rather be a quiet, happy country that just takes care of its own and chillaxes.

I doubt that would satisfy the ego of most regular Americans, to say nothing about the leadership. Exceptionalism is very deeply ingrained here.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it in the collective interests of Americans to block highly educated and productive people from taking jobs in the US? The economy is not a zero-sum game. The administration still lets in temporary agricultural workers - who work for incredibly low wages that very much undercut jobs for Americans - and yet keeps out people who work in fields where there is a shortage of qualified workers and who earn relativel…

I'm not saying it is, nor that it isn't. I'm saying we shouldn't hurl epithets at people for commenting on political concerns that affect them, just because we don't like their point of view. There's a difference between "anti-immigrant" and "anti-H1B." Look up the definition of "bigotry." People on both sides of the issue should be tolerant of reasonable commentary from the other side.

Did I hurl an epithet? I'm confused here.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was a new grad, I interviewed at Qualcomm for an embedded software job. I studied hardware, and was very up-front with the hiring manager in the phone screen, and he responded “not to worry about it”. I was flown out to do an on-site interview, and the first thing that struck me, sitting in the lobby for 20 minutes while my first interviewer arrived, was that 100% of the employees who walked through the front…

This is over the board racist comment! Re-read your comment by replacing "Indian" with "Black" and see how you feel about it.

I don't think that's an equivalent substitution. Indian Americans are by a huge margin the richest demographic group in the country, and black Americans are by a significant margin the poorest.
Post reply on HN