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Why N95 masks are hard to make

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Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#191

Post by jacobush »

pdelbarba wrote: post #79
Camillo wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"They were replaced by automation" is a vile anti-worker canard. The manufacturing jobs went to humans in China, not robots.

Haven't heard that definition of canard in a while... As with most things, I'm fairly sure the truth lies somewhere in the middle and it varies industry to industry. Yea, a lot of stuff went to china, but a lot of workers were also replaced by automated systems. In a lot of cases, I'd even venture to say maybe a majority, it was both. It's not even close to factually true to say it's JUST china or JUST robots. Also,…

Don’t forget robots in China

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#192

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

tomp wrote: post #164
sneak wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A much simpler option would to stop seeing the world as “them” and “us” and de-emphasize the borders in general. It would be great if it were illegal to control the flows of inputs to and outputs from manufacturing, but I doubt national leaders hellbent on playing the blame game and prioritizing some lives/prosperity over others simply based on the accident of birthplace would ever give up that sort of control they n…

You saw what happened in the EU. No borders but also no shared decision-making and responsibility. It quickly deteriorated to a situation worse than in the US, with each country doing its own thing (including closing most borders), and very little cooperation and helping each other. Trump might not be making the best decisions, but at least he's making decisions for the US! Noone is even trying to make decisions for…

Indeed, every new crisis shows just how fragile the EU is. It's great that Europeans can travel from country to country, live and work in whichever member state they want, and can use the same currency, but the second there's a serious crisis, it's every member state for itself.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#193

Post by tomerico »

kkarakk wrote: post #187
arminiusreturns wrote: post #166

Not all masks are N95 people. It's crazy the amount of grandstanding and virtue signaling going on here. I have had a P100 mask for years with filters in stock, and I am wearing it out on town if I have to. https://www.coopersafety.com/respirator-types

P100 doesn't stop coronavirus...

Can you explain why a P100 would be worse than N95?

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#194

Post by bostik »

axaxs wrote: post #133
arcticbull wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why we insist on keeping people in jobs that can be automated. Let them go pursue something that's fulfilling. Not automating something that can be just to keep people doing jobs we don't need done is a fascinating make-work project. The displaced should be re-trained, provided meaningful opportunities, or yeah, paid basic income out of the money saved by them not going to work. Why pay them to do…

Because to me, the consumer, I can't think of a single time automation replacing humans has been better. Self checkouts suck for anything more than a handful of items, especially compared to a well trained cashier/bagger combo. Automated call/IVR systems are hypertension inducing bad. ATMs are no replacement for tellers for most situations that bring one to the bank. I'm not a complete luddite. In many systems, speci…

I agree that at current state almost all physical self-service systems suck. Royally. The only exceptions I can think of are petrol pumps, ATMs (please read on), and to a certain extent, ticket kiosks.

I would claim that ATMs are in fact a prime example of successful automation. For anything non-mundane you still need to go talk to a human, but that's the point: ATMs have removed the need to involve a human bottleneck for a bulk quantity of an extremely mundane task: withdrawing cash. I am old enough to remember when you had to go to the bank for that too.

This hits the nail on the head, though:

> The problem arises when anything requiring the least bit of thinking is attempted to be automated.

Humans are capable of judgment calls.[ß] Computers do exactly what you tell them to do, which is not necessarily what you want them to do.

ß: environments where humans are forbidden from making judgment calls are called bureaucracies.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#195

Post by jopsen »

_2d30 wrote: post #143
sneak wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A much simpler option would to stop seeing the world as “them” and “us” and de-emphasize the borders in general. It would be great if it were illegal to control the flows of inputs to and outputs from manufacturing, but I doubt national leaders hellbent on playing the blame game and prioritizing some lives/prosperity over others simply based on the accident of birthplace would ever give up that sort of control they n…

The problem with the post-national view is that it has to be a consensus view globally. It's a classic prisoner's dilemma. It has to begin with everyone respecting broadly the same general ethics and views on rights. As it turns out, there are countries where women aren't allowed to drive, where religious autocracies rule, where whole populations of religious minorities are imprisoned and enslaved and the people of t…

> The problem with the post-national view is that it has to be a consensus view globally. It's a classic prisoner's dilemma.

We can and are doing this at a much smaller scale. We have trade organizations that mediates disputes. And the US has been successfully pushing variants of the DMCA everywhere.

A sovereign country could decide that copyright is no more (within its borders), but no developed country has done it. Most countries probably pay more in copyright royalties to other countries than they get in return.

Isn't copyright also a prisoners dilemma?

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#197

Post by newguy1234 »

seppin wrote: post #196
tomerico wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain why a P100 would be worse than N95?

N95 doesn't "stop" COVID19 other unless you wear it over your eyes too.

but it does stop covid from entering through your nose and mouth....which is the most likely path you are to get it.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#198

Post by ckcheng »

jhpriestley wrote: post #61
_2d30 wrote: post #13

I do believe these masks are also made in the US, but this situation highlights exactly why a country having its own major manufacturing base is not just an economic need but rather also a national security need. The US needs to invest in itself immediately to rebuild its lost manufacturing base. In economic terms, under certain definitions and assumptions that are typical under modern economics, a trade war such as…

Stockpiling essential medical equipment sounds a lot cheaper than autarky.

Stockpiling is good as part of the preparation but isn't enough.

e.g. "Five months worth of supplies were used by one hospital in six days" [1]

How's any country supposed to stockpile enough at that rate?

And stockpiles require upkeep and evergreening. Otherwise things like masks eventually expire [2]. Upkeep costs money too.

[1] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politic...

[2] https://nationalpost.com/news/world/ontario-stockpiled-milli...

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#199

Post by piva00 »

Paperweight wrote: post #173
jdietrich wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We have the workforce. That's the problem - you don't. By definition, the kind of efficient, highly-automated manufacturing you're thinking of doesn't need many unskilled or semi-skilled workers, but it does need skilled and experienced engineers and machinists. It needs a massive and complex ecosystem of suppliers and support. The depletion of America's industrial base has created a massive skills gap that would ta…

Highly-automated, "clean" manufacturing is all well and good for billion-dollar highly-capitalized, politically-sheltered megafactories, but what about the other 90% of manufacturers? Manufacturing is a dirty, dangerous, manual business. I think the small guys will tell you that environmental regulations killed manufacturing in the west, not labour costs. We've been living in lala land with it all offshore, out of si…

Tell that to Germany, stricter environmental regulations and a very healthy, highly developed manufacturing sector. They might not have all of their supply chain made locally but Germany makes the machines that makes machines so if needed they could ramp up their internal manufacturing quite quickly, doesn't seem to be the case for the US.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#200

Post by wigiv »

Does anyone here have any personal, specific, actionable knowledge of the melt-blown plastics process? Are there alternatives for achieving the N95 (or sufficient) filtration levels in a different sheet material?

Automating many steps of assembly are [more] straightforward, but this precursor material supply really is a problematic bottleneck.

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