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Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

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Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#191

> It's less bad that people sometimes got their feelings hurt than it is to institutionalize a means by which dissenting opinions are crushed under the rubric of “not nice”. This is eloquently put. The "fetishization of niceness" he talks about is such a strange trend to watch. It started in universities but it's like it wants to eat all of society and social interactions

Worse, it's not actually about being nice. I'm speaking in general and not about this ESR situation, but subtle forms of bigotry, bullying and intimidation are often part of the tone policing culture.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#192
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty the point is that OSI already laid down guidelines that asked for civil communication - and name calling is epitome of uncivil communication. Indeed, his comment is basically contesting those guidelines. So this was clearly one of those no recovery situations. Either guidelines for civil behavior or "show me the code" meritocracy wins but it's hard to see "agreeing to disagree" being possible here.

Being a prior mod of a city sub.. "toxic loonytoon" is a rather light thing to be called. My concern is if you're drawing the line over this what you're communicating to people is that you cannot negatively sum up another individual, even when it's warranted. A productive conversation can be had on the merits of the label. Are you trying to incentivize long posts about all of the non-sensical policies that the indivi…

Avoiding name calling a standard guideline for civil communication. Maybe there's some moderation standard where just really bad name calling or something is the only no-no that's avoided but that's really the question here.

The point is it's pretty plausible the ESR was breaking guidelines that had been laid down already. Maybe he should have broken them for all I know but all I'm saying really is that for an authority to remain credible they have to enforce guidelines specifically when someone is openly defying them. That's it.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#193
post #47
post #24

I’m torn on this. On one hand, esr has a point. There is a credible argument that cancel culture has gone too far, and that expressing disagreement itself is now becoming dangerous as those with whom you disagree will take the opportunity to play victim and attempt to defame you simply for disagreeing. Identity politics along these lines have lately become unproductive and distracting. I generally don’t participate i…

> Real jerks in f/oss are also a real problem. f/oss groups should ABSOLUTELY eject bullies: not for wrongthink, but for bullying. We must be kind. So, is it illegitimate, then, to have a FOSS project with an intentional/cultivated "culture of abuse", where the idea is that nobody is kind to anybody and that's how everybody likes it? Sort of a... "BSDM but we build something along the way" thing? (For example, pictur…

The comparison to BDSM is incorrect. BDSM is about "abuse" that one enjoys due to established parameters. I don't think anyone at the receiving end of abuse within F/OSS enjoys the abuse and seeks it out. That's why the codes of conduct exist, to... bring F/OSS in line with the expected ethical standards of scenes such as BDSM, so to speak.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#194
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Real jerks in f/oss are also a real problem. f/oss groups should ABSOLUTELY eject bullies: not for wrongthink, but for bullying. We must be kind. So, is it illegitimate, then, to have a FOSS project with an intentional/cultivated "culture of abuse", where the idea is that nobody is kind to anybody and that's how everybody likes it? Sort of a... "BSDM but we build something along the way" thing? (For example, pictur…

> where the idea is that nobody is kind to anybody and that's how everybody likes it? Crocker's Rules[0] as CODE_OF_CONDUCT? That's an interesting idea indeed. Especially if you want to actively preempt entryism by the usual faction of CoC-pushers. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20021202223742/http://sl4.org/cr...

> Note that Crocker's Rules does not mean you can insult people; it means that other people don't have to worry about whether they are insulting you.

People deciding to subject themselves to this does not allow them to be abusive towards others, nor would it be stretch to argue that for a project to be "open", there ought to not be a culture of actively being inconsiderate.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#195
post #24

I’m torn on this. On one hand, esr has a point. There is a credible argument that cancel culture has gone too far, and that expressing disagreement itself is now becoming dangerous as those with whom you disagree will take the opportunity to play victim and attempt to defame you simply for disagreeing. Identity politics along these lines have lately become unproductive and distracting. I generally don’t participate i…

> On the other hand, esr is a real jerk. Real jerks in f/oss are also a real problem. f/oss groups should ABSOLUTELY eject bullies: not for wrongthink, but for bullying. We must be kind.

I disagree with this argument as it is stated, because it is much too broad.

If you had limited it to saying that you will eject bullies from f/oss groups that you have control over, and will refuse to participate in f/oss groups that have bullies in them, that would be fine. But you don't get to tell every single person who does f/oss what kinds of people they should be willing to work with. That kind of "I presume to tell everyone else what they should do" mentality is exactly what is wrong with the "cancel culture" that you rightly condemn.

I also disagree with the particular opinion you have stated regarding esr, as you stated it, because again it is much too broad, and indeed goes in the wrong direction if anything. I have worked with esr on a small part of one of his f/oss projects (porting reposurgeon to Python 3, and then co-authoring a HOWTO explaining the methods we used), and I did not find him to be a jerk at all in that context. He was focused on solving the problem and writing good code, and was extremely helpful and productive in his communications. I think you will find plenty of other people who have worked with him on actual coding who have had similar experiences. So if he does exhibit jerkitude, I think it's in contexts that do not involve getting actual f/oss work done. I think that makes a big difference.

I also think people who view his sometimes forceful method of expressing himself as jerkitude are failing to understand his reasons for taking such a tone when he does, and which he has on his own blog with regard to the OSI affair. The game he sees being played with OSI is not an isolated incident: the general MO of playing on people's innate sense of fairness to get control of an organization under the guise of "we must be kind", and then completely subverting that organization's original purpose, has been a staple of the Left for centuries, if not longer. It's the same game that was played at universities across the US in the 1960s. People who are aware of that historical background are understandably greatly concerned to see it happening again.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#196
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any idea who that may be?

https://wiki.opensource.org/bin/Main/OSI+Board+of+Directors/... He is referring to one of the people running for the board of directors whose major goal is to introduce Codes of Conduct into open source projects.

So someone who wants to destroy open source then, at the core of its foundations.

I can’t wait until this identity politics pendulum starts swinging back. Some people are going to be really embarrassed about the legacy they left for themselves while it was still around.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a weird rejoinder to make in a thread about ESR, who was one of the loudest voices arguing for corporate-friendly language ("open-source" not "free software") and licenses (permissive, not copyleft).

And yet, if that's what it took to drive corporate adoption of open source software, it was almost certainly worth it... Can you imagine Linux in a world where companies like Google don't contribute kernel patches? Because I think that would look like a world where all the best OSes were proprietary.

> Can you imagine Linux in a world where companies like Google don't contribute kernel patches?

Not only can I imagine, but I lived in that world.

> Because I think that would look like a world where all the best OSes were proprietary.

Linux was excellent before ... Google even existed.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know exactly who you are talking about. I’ve had some heated exchanges with them on Twitter. What started out as me just trying to understand the viewpoint of someone who is different than me, quickly turned into them turning their followers into an angry mob that flooded me with personal attacks. This one incident turned me off of not only that person but the entire cancel culture movement.

> This one incident turned me off of not only that person but the entire cancel culture movement. Are you perchance saying that you "cancelled" the cancel culture movement based on a single interaction you didn't enjoy?

Between that interaction (which wasn’t solely me, there were other people that were treated similarly), and other things I have witnessed from people in that movement, I’m confident that it’s not healthy and not something I want any part of.

They have noble goals, but the approach is wrong in a lot of cases. Many of the people have the same toxic personalities that they rail against so loudly.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#199
post #46

> They have already had an alarming degree of success at this through the institution of "Codes of Conduct" on many projects. This has led to the expulsion of productive contributors for un-PCness; it's not just a problem in theory. Talk to me. Seriously, you can not talk about this topic without talking to me because you are talking about me anyways. (And no, ESR never reached out to me.) I have been, by any measure…

> I have been banned from the Drupal project for Code Of Conduct violations in 2016. Out of curiosity, how long did they ban you for and will they give you any 'parole hearings' for good behavior? Or is this a lifetime ban without possibility of parole? In most countries somebody convicted of murder might hope to one day be declared rehabilitated, but it's not clear to me what role rehabilitation plays in CoC enforce…

> Out of curiosity, how long did they ban you for

at the time, this was never clearly stated but I believe the shared understanding was indefinite

> will they give you any 'parole hearings' for good behavior

noone even thought of that

> but it's not clear to me what role rehabilitation plays in CoC enforcement.

This is not as simple as sitting on the bench for a time and then you are back and yay.

I'd say the road to rehabilitation is rare. You do not get the banhammer for straying just once and so if you are hell bent on being so toxic that you need to be banned then bending out of that shape is probably quite rare. It took the entire #metoo movement (for me especially Susan Fowler's incredible Uber blog post, the Hungarian accusations I blogged about and the infamous Drupal one I alluded to in the blog post) to shake me badly enough to make it possible to re-investigate my entire world view on these topics. And then came the time when the CoC was introduced to Linux and the bro avalanche again provided me a unique opportunity to say "no. this is not right." and I spent an entire day on reddit trying to answer all this crap. I got lucky but as they say, luck is when preparedness meet opportunity and I am not sure others will have these opportunities.

If you haven't read Susan Fowler's Whistleblower book, do so now.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#200
post #47
post #24

I’m torn on this. On one hand, esr has a point. There is a credible argument that cancel culture has gone too far, and that expressing disagreement itself is now becoming dangerous as those with whom you disagree will take the opportunity to play victim and attempt to defame you simply for disagreeing. Identity politics along these lines have lately become unproductive and distracting. I generally don’t participate i…

> Real jerks in f/oss are also a real problem. f/oss groups should ABSOLUTELY eject bullies: not for wrongthink, but for bullying. We must be kind. So, is it illegitimate, then, to have a FOSS project with an intentional/cultivated "culture of abuse", where the idea is that nobody is kind to anybody and that's how everybody likes it? Sort of a... "BSDM but we build something along the way" thing? (For example, pictur…

Whether FOSS implies open membership is a matter of semantics. FOSS can refer to the development model (bazaar vs cathedral), the community, attitudes ("patches welcome" as a way of saying "well do it yourself then", meant sarcastically as "patches welcome" is repeating the implicit), or ideological stance (blah blah freedom).

So I don't think "does FOSS imply open membership" even has an answer.

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