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Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

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Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#141

Post by nemo44x »

nrclark wrote: post #59

I've read a bunch of ESR's writing, and I disagree with him on an awful lot of political and social issues. Chances are we wouldn't get along very well. Tone-policing, cancel culture, and identity politics are a real problem though, and it seems like they're getting out of hand. This is happening everywhere though - it's not unique to the open source world at all. I don't know what the right solution is. ESR and RMS…

It's just a power grab and has gone on forever in many forms. Redefine language and classify certain language as non-compliant under the guise of whatever it is that works to your advantage. Then use this to create systemic policy to dictate towards your goals and ultimately control whatever resource it is you were trying to colonize or acquire.

Language is power and can greatly influence and define what masses of people think about their world view and their experience. Those who get to define which language is "appropriate" and which is not have a certain power to take as they please. "Tone-policing", "cancel culture", and "identity politics" aren't unique in the sense that they are designed to seize power, as this is a tale as old as time. It's a strategy that proponents believe will help their in-group and followers acquire and maintain power over cultural resources.

I'm not saying this example is good, bad, or neutral - just what it is: Using language to project influence and power and take the cultural resources you want.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#142

Post by rodgerd »

Given that the free software world struggles to resolve the relatively simple moral conundrum of whether or not licenses should require people to share, adding another layer of moral and ethical concerns on top - around the idea of trying to define good and bad uses for software - is a heck of an ambitious problem; as such there's a lot of good arguments for and against a candidate who wants the OSI to pick up that work.

It's unfortunately that the esr clown show has derailed that with the ravings of a man who, quite to the contrary of one of his sayings, doesn't contribute much code and won't shut up; and the rather than introducing any cogent or interesting thoughts on the topic, has simply sprayed abuse around like an out-of-control honeywagon. The OSI will be a great deal better off for his absence.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#143

Post by korethr »

geofft wrote: post #70
nrclark wrote: post #59

I've read a bunch of ESR's writing, and I disagree with him on an awful lot of political and social issues. Chances are we wouldn't get along very well. Tone-policing, cancel culture, and identity politics are a real problem though, and it seems like they're getting out of hand. This is happening everywhere though - it's not unique to the open source world at all. I don't know what the right solution is. ESR and RMS…

We also don't know what the movement would look like today if it weren't dominated by their personalities (and their personality conflicts) in its formative days. It's pretty clear that a lot of people were interested in the ideals behind their movements and contributed in massive ways to the success of the movements - it's not clear that either of them were needed to get the movement off the ground (see also, Great…

I seem to recall a post on his blog where he addressed this point. IIRC, his conclusion was that if it had not been him, then then the culture/movement/whatever would have eventually invented someone else like him. That is, someone would have eventually noticed the same things, come to the same or similar conclusions, recognized (or at least thought) they had the social skills/aptitude needed to successfully promote the ideas to the wider world, and gotten started. I can't disagree with that. The question to me is whether that would have happened around the same time, or if it would have taken several more years for the same things to click for someone else.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#144

Post by [deleted] »

nrclark wrote: post #59

I've read a bunch of ESR's writing, and I disagree with him on an awful lot of political and social issues. Chances are we wouldn't get along very well. Tone-policing, cancel culture, and identity politics are a real problem though, and it seems like they're getting out of hand. This is happening everywhere though - it's not unique to the open source world at all. I don't know what the right solution is. ESR and RMS…

[deleted]

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#145

Post by SftwrSvior81 »

aeturnum wrote: post #10

From the previous discussion, plorkyeran[1] found the email that they suspect got ESR banned: http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-discuss_lists.... I'm not familiar with the culture or standards of the OSI but I don't think I'd wanna participate in a community where this kind of engagement is normal, so good for them I suppose? Edit: replaced plorkyeran's account link with their post. I also now notice othe…

What does ESD stand for? I did a quick google search but there were too many seemingly irrelevant hits.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#146

Post by derefr »

root_axis wrote: post #138
derefr wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abilene_paradox . I've seen a few cases now where a FOSS project community—one that is nominally open to new members, but is in practice a closed and static group of close-knit friends—starts off all perfectly happy with a sort of raunchy/abusive internal demeanor; but then someone comes to them with a suggestion of some Code of Conduct or other standard of decorum; and then e…

That's still a voluntary choice made by those individuals. If the group doesn't want to follow the suggestion of an outsider they don't have to do that.

Well, yes; my point was that there's certain societal expectations "out in the environment" that cause groups to do dumb things; and the way to fix the problem created by that is to change the societal expectations.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#147

Post by asdf21 »

_qbjt wrote: post #23
justinmk wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He thinks homosexuals are pedophile. Do you have a primary source for that? This sounds like a cancel-culture rumor intended to attach negative ideas to a person in order to discredit them.

Straight from the horse's mouth: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=26

>and the North American Man-Boy Love Association, actively advocating pederasty and pedophilia, is welcomed at gay-pride events everywhere.

Hit "D" for doubt. ^

That being said, he never says all gays are pedos though -- he says they are three to ten times more likely to be pedos.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#148

Post by itamarst »

I found one of the emails (https://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-discuss_lists..., at the bottom)

I would ban someone for that. "Toxic loonytoon" is not a productive way to have a discussion.

(Originally quoted it here but getting formatting right here is terrible).

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#149

Post by ForHackernews »

cpach wrote: post #109

Oh, lots of ESR fanboys here today! Can someone of you please explain exactly what it is that makes ESR a great hacker/programmer?

Nothing, imho. He maintained the jargon file and some irrelevant old unix utilities for a while. His primary achievement was non-technical: taking the radical philosophy of free software and neutering it be acceptable to corporations. He also wrote a book[0] with a catchy title that many people referenced and few people read.

I think ESR is a dabbler and popularizer who has built his personal brand around being a Man-in-Tech rather than a person who actually produces significant technical contributions. RMS or Torvalds he ain't.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cathedral_and_the_Bazaar

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#150

Post by larrywright »

downerending wrote: post #71
zozbot234 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "toxic loonytoon" part, referencing a prominent candidate to the OSI board? I mean, surely we can all have our own opinions about any candidate, but the optics aren't that good.

I think it's a reference to one of the people pushing very hard on spreading CoCs everywhere. Can't recall the name. (Corin?) Reading some of that person's tweets, though, left me with a very bad impression. Anyway, search and form your own opinion.

I know exactly who you are talking about. I’ve had some heated exchanges with them on Twitter. What started out as me just trying to understand the viewpoint of someone who is different than me, quickly turned into them turning their followers into an angry mob that flooded me with personal attacks.

This one incident turned me off of not only that person but the entire cancel culture movement.

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