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Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

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Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#191

Post by Arkhaine_kupo »

tbatchelli wrote: post #178
hummel wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no Catalonia issue and you have plenty of freedom to express yourself wherever you want. We must remember that Catalonia has already held two legal referendums, where the result has been a refusal of the Catalan people to leave Spain or Independence. Apart from not having any historical reason for independence, it is very funny how you talk about a lack of freedom of expression in a country that has suffered…

I must have missed something. What are those two legal referendums that you speak of? Also, wouldn't the reasons for independence be up to the citizens? You say there have none...

I think he means no historically justifiable reasons. Most countries demanding self determination due so in religious, political or historical basis.

Catalan identitarianism is very very recent. Culturally they are as Spanish as any other region (spain is relatively federal more so than a single monolithic culture like France). Some of the main reasons for claimed independence are "Spain steals from us". Now this is insulting to many Spaniards as the implication is that they pay taxes so everyone else can be lazy and fuck about. Essentially its based on them wanting a similar tax treaty to the basque country, another rich area who pays much less in tax than other areas with similar average salaries. In other words, rich not wanting to pay their fair share.

Slogans like that have alienated the discussion massively in Spain. Then they elected a local government that made their own campaign about leaving Spain. So kinda like the Brexit party in the UK they had to deliver, so they took crazy drastic measures, government escalated the problem massively and now we are here in no mans land.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#192

Post by xiker »

hummel wrote: post #168
mindB wrote: post #156

Github will not be shutdown over any action they do or do not take in Spain. The worst that can happen to Github is that they are prevented from doing business in Spain. Given how strongly Spain has come down against freedom of expression on the Catalonia issue, Github is making it very clear by taking this action that freedom of expression is not one of their values. Let me repeat, Spain has come down hard enough ag…

There is no Catalonia issue and you have plenty of freedom to express yourself wherever you want. We must remember that Catalonia has already held two legal referendums, where the result has been a refusal of the Catalan people to leave Spain or Independence. Apart from not having any historical reason for independence, it is very funny how you talk about a lack of freedom of expression in a country that has suffered…

> We must remember that Catalonia has already held two legal referendums, where the result has been a refusal of the Catalan people to leave Spain or Independence

That's not true, I think you are confusing Catalonia with Scotland.

Preciselly one of the main issues is that a part o Catalonian society (I would say a big one, from both sides, independentist and non independentists) wants a referndum, but Spain refuses to do it.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#193

Post by [deleted] »

mschuster91 wrote: post #170
mihemihe wrote: post #165

Don't get the wrong message because they use the term Democratic and play being the victims. Majority of people in Catalonia do not support secession. Those are the real victims, the 50%-ish which are silent, and suffering every day not being able to declare in public their love for their country, Spain and Catalonia, their region. They used this app to organize violent riots, taking advantage of the pacifist demonst…

It's similar to Brexit. No matter what the government does, 50% of people will be utterly pissed off. But the biggest problem is that, unlike the UK where Scotland was allowed to hold a proper referendum in 2014, the Spanish government is not only not allowing holding a real referendum that would settle the issue for the next few years, but also prosecuting those responsible for the 2017 referendum with extremely har…

[deleted]

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#194

Post by mihemihe »

kuroikyu wrote: post #175
mihemihe wrote: post #165

Don't get the wrong message because they use the term Democratic and play being the victims. Majority of people in Catalonia do not support secession. Those are the real victims, the 50%-ish which are silent, and suffering every day not being able to declare in public their love for their country, Spain and Catalonia, their region. They used this app to organize violent riots, taking advantage of the pacifist demonst…

> They used this app to organize violent riots, taking advantage of the pacifist demonstrations organized by the pro-secession political parties. They also used this app to organize non-violent protests, but why say that when you can tell half the truth to tell your story? I'm sure Whatsapp, Telegram, Messenger good ol' SMS were used to organize violent riots, but we won't close those right? I'm sorry but your argume…

Hong Kong and Catalonia are completely different stories, you know that, but still we like to draw the attention to Hong Kong and find similarities where there are none.

They closed other sources such as websites, and VPS hosting mirrors. You cannot simply "close" WhatsApp or Telegram or SMS, that is not how it works, unless you just cut the service for everybody, or go down the rabbit hole of chasing hundreds if ad-hoc groups.

Still, the real victims here are the 50%+ of Spaniards who want to remain being Spaniards. In my opinion, while there are people who want to continue being part of Spain, the government is doing right protecting the law and shutting the secessionists down.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#195

Post by crawfordcomeaux »

reallydontask wrote: post #164
mindB wrote: post #156

Github will not be shutdown over any action they do or do not take in Spain. The worst that can happen to Github is that they are prevented from doing business in Spain. Given how strongly Spain has come down against freedom of expression on the Catalonia issue, Github is making it very clear by taking this action that freedom of expression is not one of their values. Let me repeat, Spain has come down hard enough ag…

> I highly value freedom of expression, and to me it is especially important to me that a code-hosting and (like it or not) a social media website holds to that value as well. This will definitely affect whether I choose Github or Microsoft in the future. Would you rather choose a company that doesn't comply with local laws? Most governments ( no doubt, yours too), want companies operating under their jurisdiction to…

I would love to see civil disobedience at a corporate level. That level of bravery is so rare and so necessary.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#196

Post by segmondy »

You know what I'll like to see, maybe I'll build it when I get the bandwidth. A system that let's you mass publish across many places at once.

You can publish to github, bitbucket, gitlabs, netlify, neocities, heroku, reddit, HN, youtube, blogger, facebook etc, like 100 different places.

Then any govt that wants to orders a take down, has to reach out to all those places, but the main thing of course is that most of these places shouldn't be in US, some should be in EU, Russia, China.

The idea being that bureaucracy will get in the way of taking some down.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#197

Post by kragen »

couchand wrote: post #172
swebs wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A government is the system or group of people governing an organized community, often a state.[1] >In the case of its broad associative definition, government normally consists of legislature, executive, and judiciary. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government

You are quoting from the English-language Wikipedia. Contrast that with [0], which states "El Gobierno es el principal pilar del Estado; ... ejercicio del poder ejecutivo del Estado", the latter of which links to [1], which clarifies, "el poder ejecutivo es una de las tres facultades y funciones primordiales del Estado". [0]: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gobierno [1]: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poder_ejecutivo

You seem to be talking about the meanings of some Spanish words, but the disagreement is about the meanings of words in English, which is not the same language as Spanish. Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21397278.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#198

Post by Unai »

mindB wrote: post #156

Github will not be shutdown over any action they do or do not take in Spain. The worst that can happen to Github is that they are prevented from doing business in Spain. Given how strongly Spain has come down against freedom of expression on the Catalonia issue, Github is making it very clear by taking this action that freedom of expression is not one of their values. Let me repeat, Spain has come down hard enough ag…

What a tremendously uneducated comment. Freedom of expression has not being limited in Spain in any way or form, not at all. The apk was removed because a judge (not politics, not the police) confirmed that the app was used to organize violent manifestations. And GitHub had to legally comply with the warrant. No action is being taken to stop manifestations, only to stop the organization of violence.

In case you want to also made the uneducated point that the violence is necessary, I want to remind you that the fact that people manifest doesn't automatically mean there exist oppression from the state, as in this case, there is none.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#199

Post by hummel »

braythwayt wrote: post #174
hummel wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no Catalonia issue and you have plenty of freedom to express yourself wherever you want. We must remember that Catalonia has already held two legal referendums, where the result has been a refusal of the Catalan people to leave Spain or Independence. Apart from not having any historical reason for independence, it is very funny how you talk about a lack of freedom of expression in a country that has suffered…

"There is no Catalonia issue" I beg your pardon, are you gaslighting Hacker News? I saw videos of protests. Were those fake? I have friends from Catalonia who tell me there is an issue. Are they lying to me? Whether you agree that Catalonia should leave Spain or not, whether you agree that Spain should jail the leaders of a movement to leave Spain or not, there clearly is an issue. There clearly is some dissent, some…

The protests were violent riots not supported by any political party or entity, Catalan or not. As you can see violence stopped like one week ago, and everything back to normal. For example, you can see here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkgW7Bab1J8) violence blocked the university, so other Catalan students cant go to classes that day. Catalan society is not related to the protest. It is like seeing an Antifa video from US and think there is a political revolution.

Your friends probably didn't tell you, that ordinary justice condemns the political leaders, not because organizing a referendum, but for public funds misappropriation, corruption and refuse to follow the law. Something reasonable, since on other countries and 99% of history when you revolt, either you win or you will get your head off. The trial was public, documented and fair. Probably an exemplary for the future on how to deal when a corrupt government wants to take over.

You also need to go back a few years and read what happened on the previous referendum, that they were legal because they were organized following the rules and because this is a democracy. If you don't like the rules you have a political parliament and elections to change the laws. Thats fine.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#200

Post by Arkhaine_kupo »

mschuster91 wrote: post #170
mihemihe wrote: post #165

Don't get the wrong message because they use the term Democratic and play being the victims. Majority of people in Catalonia do not support secession. Those are the real victims, the 50%-ish which are silent, and suffering every day not being able to declare in public their love for their country, Spain and Catalonia, their region. They used this app to organize violent riots, taking advantage of the pacifist demonst…

It's similar to Brexit. No matter what the government does, 50% of people will be utterly pissed off. But the biggest problem is that, unlike the UK where Scotland was allowed to hold a proper referendum in 2014, the Spanish government is not only not allowing holding a real referendum that would settle the issue for the next few years, but also prosecuting those responsible for the 2017 referendum with extremely har…

Ok lets break this down. Its not similar to Brexit, United kingdom is a union of different countries, Spain is a single country.

The UK allowed a referendum because it has to. Spain voted its constitution in 1978, that means most of the voters are still alive and it got ratified in every community including Barcelona. So there are people protesting now that the constitution does not imminently allow a referendum that voted in favour of that clause being there 40 years ago.

They got prosecuted for crimes such as sedecion, which is like treason light, and misuse of public funds. I dont see how German murder charges are relevant here. Politicians misusing taxes should be heavily punished regardless of country, corruption is eroding the already fragile public sector and safety net we have.

Also Spain is a democracy, if they want a referendum all the have to do is find the votes for it in national parliment. Join with the basque and galician sececionists. Find allies in far left groups who affect self determination by identitarian groups, and vote it. What you cannot claim is that 51% of Catalans = democracy and 66% of Spanish congress = not democracy. They are simply thresholds, and Spain is more stingent than most. But i would argue 66% avoids Brexit like votes so it is preferable in the age of internet manipulation where hitting vulnerable masses of people is accesible through Cambridge analytica type election manipulation.

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