Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession • Hacker News Board

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#191

Post by trobertson » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 3:54 PM UTC

aivisol wrote: post #106

perceptronas wrote: post #10

>After the 2008 recession, President Obama and the Democrats effectively saved capitalism from itself; a more radical leadership would fight to replace it with a better system. This time around there may be far more pressure from below to do just that, especially with a more organized left and more class conscious young people. As a former soviet occupied country citizen, I am amazed that westerners would want to ove…

I come from a similar place and feel the same, and would never ever want those times back. We have seen too much repression, horror and misery that we have developed our own allergy against anything which hints in that direction. But on the other hand I can understand the appeal of the ideas which promise that there will be no inequality, everyone gets access to free education, healthcare etc. That all sounds nice, b…

> That all sounds nice, but what is suspicious that we have not seen a working implementation yet.

You mean to say that Western and Central Europe don't exist? They have single-payer healthcare and it works way better than American healthcare. They have cheap tuition and it works way better than American tuition.

We see that America could be better if we stopped being dogmatic about capitalism, and stopped putting it where it doesn't belong. Capitalism is about money. It is not about well-being. It is very poorly suited for well-being.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#192

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 3:54 PM UTC

danharaj wrote: post #179

Will_Parker wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And any sort of diversion from that approved narrative, like suggesting that some of this is going a little too far, will make you a pariah in the industry. This is what I'm getting in, in questioning how much "the establishment" allows vigorous debate.

How is it going too far to call someone "they" or even a neopronoun like "xie"? What cost is it to you that you need to vigorously debate it?

[deleted]

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#193

Post by DuskStar » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 3:55 PM UTC

danharaj wrote: post #179

Will_Parker wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And any sort of diversion from that approved narrative, like suggesting that some of this is going a little too far, will make you a pariah in the industry. This is what I'm getting in, in questioning how much "the establishment" allows vigorous debate.

How is it going too far to call someone "they" or even a neopronoun like "xie"? What cost is it to you that you need to vigorously debate it?

"why do you need to debate it" isn't the point - the point is that you can't debate one side of it without people lining up to burn the witch.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#194

Post by rolltiide » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 3:55 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #88

rolltiide wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since they didn’t say that you are presenting a false dilemma. Suggesting two binary extremes and ignoring the possibility of a spectrum of outcomes in a multifaceted problem We aren’t toddlers so try not use juvenile logic

Socialism is just a word that's used as "not capitalism". The point is, though, if the ownership of capitals (means of production) is so concentrated (1% own 90% of capital), then pretty much the only "solution" is effectively disowning them, consequences be damned. That's clearly in contrast to the spirit (and law) of capitalism, hence many (even capitalists) would simply call it "socialism" (or "communism"), even i…

I see, so is there a better word instead of this misappropriated colloquialism?

Its impossible to talk nuances of resource appropriation with an evocative term used inaccurately

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#195

Post by KirinDave » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 3:56 PM UTC

isoskeles wrote: post #136

KirinDave wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don’t want Stalinism, but you do want to limit the speech of people who disagree with what you want? Asking for substantive debate free of tragic reactionary propaganda is not "limiting the speech" of people who disagree, it's asking for an intellectually honest forum for a discussion. You're complaining because folks are tired of having important conversations hijacked with slippery slope falacies and the repe…

I wouldn't call the actual experience of a regular person who lived under the rule of the USSR to be any sort of propaganda. But I suppose that's just another way of saying you would like to invalidate anything said by people you don't agree with. Not that the comment in question was particularly substantive. There is certainly a debate to be had there, but it's already been done a million times over on the internet,…

No one here is disputing the USSR was a bad place to live. I think that's an argument you want to have come up rather than an argument I'm making. I'm saying that the fusion of authoritarian government and leftism was both a tactic of the USA and the USSR for different reasons. That's not a novel idea, is been covered by a lot of historians.

> But it is very interesting to read a comment like yours. Not for any reason other than to see the pure rage, saying literally nothing "intellectually honest" about the subject, but rather comparing people you disagree with to conspiracy theorists who believe in aliens.

Rage? Okay.

Your "freedom to" does not invalidate my "freedom from". I am not suppressing you in any way by exercising my right to say that I'm unintrested in your straw man.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#196

Post by isodude » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 3:57 PM UTC

sol_remmy2 wrote: post #142

KirinDave wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Obviously this can greatly vary. In America, immigration is tied to lower wages for lower tier jobs like chefs, construction workers, factory workers. I don't know enough to state immigration's effects on high tier white collar jobs like software engineering. Can you show evidence this really happens even within lower wage jobs? Folks point out that not only are immigrants much less expensive labor for communities…

> This is a surprisingly common take on the literature, with an unlikely consensus among both the conservative and radical left, libertarians and conservative libertarians, and even many on the conservative side. I hate asking but mind citing some sources? Economic consensus is that labor pool operates on supply/demand, so greatly increase the supply through immigration will reduce demand and therefore reduce salarie…

If people move to the city they work in, they would not only be workers but also citizens. Thus increasing the supply of workers. But also the amount of consumers. It's a two way street. Importing work force that only work during the day and then leave is however bad I would say. People that are sick are also a toll (that's expected to yield return someday, future investment).

That is just my uneducated take on it.

When I search for the terms immigration wages I get the following sources:

https://www.sns.se/en/archive/effects-of-immigration-on-nati... https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-wages/

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#197

Post by Will_Parker » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 3:57 PM UTC

danharaj wrote: post #179

Will_Parker wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And any sort of diversion from that approved narrative, like suggesting that some of this is going a little too far, will make you a pariah in the industry. This is what I'm getting in, in questioning how much "the establishment" allows vigorous debate.

How is it going too far to call someone "they" or even a neopronoun like "xie"? What cost is it to you that you need to vigorously debate it?

I'm not interested in debating it here, because it could damage my career, which is my point.

In fact, even debating whether I should be able to debate it could damage my career. I believe this widespread use of silencing tactics, by implicit threat, has gone too far.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#198

Post by KirinDave » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 3:58 PM UTC

douglaswlance wrote: post #91

KirinDave wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To even have such a conversation you'd have to define value, and I think you'll have a tough time doing this. You're also essentially defining an economic aristocracy. Folks with more resources can contribute more value, which in common worldviews associated with what you said suggests they deserve more profit. That's the crassest form of economic attachment, and it's silly to pretend that it's efficient or fair.

Software engineers contribute more value to society than do McDonald's fry cooks. A McDonald's fry cook could be a software engineer, but they choose not to. McDonald's fry cooks protest for $15 minimum wage; instead of spending that time studying programming. If we protested about not fully utilizing our lower contributing members of society, instead of condemning the highest contributing mebers; we'd have a healthi…

You're using Burke's theory of value: rich people make things have value by deciding they want them and being rich.

That position is not considered very strong by modern economic standards.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#199

Post by flmontpetit » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 3:59 PM UTC

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #149

cryoshon wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

pride, character, and respect from colleagues are things that don't pay the bills, even though they're nice to have. i know this is sounds like a snarky and low-effort response, but it is not intentional. it's just the way things are, and there isn't really a diplomatic way of saying it.

> "pride, character, and respect from colleagues are things that don't pay the bill" I can name several dozen colleagues I've worked for over the years who will vouch for me and help me get a job if I should ever need it and that does pay the bills. People who say things like the above quote, can't.

To be honest you don't need to work very hard to achieve this.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#200

Post by DuskStar » Tue, Oct 22, 2019, 4:00 PM UTC

bsanr2 wrote: post #38

npo9 wrote: post #3

I’m really surprised this piece was almost entirely about public opinion, only using economics to discuss the likelihood of a recession soon and the effects of inequality. The levers our governments have been pulling to steer the economy are reaching their maximum. The system where we reduce interest rates to spur spending to stimulate the economy (probably) don’t work when interest rates negative.

The problem is that you either incentivize higher economic volume or you get deflation. They tried printing money and giving it to the banks to loan because they're afraid to do the one rational thing there is and, in doing so, piss off the wealthy. But now that it seems that we're going to see instability and unrest no matter what, it's time to play that card, and hopefully shorten our inevitable economic Dark Age:…

> Wealth tax.

HAHAHAHAHA

If anything, a wealth tax is what turns things from "depression" to "catastrophic failure" - capital flight would be a massive problem. And even ignoring any effects from changing incentives, why would taking from the most productive and giving to the government improve the economy?