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Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

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Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#81

Post by wool_gather »

perceptronas wrote: post #23
ebg13 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a former soviet occupied country citizen, I am amazed that westerners would want to overthrow capitalism. They would probably say that they perceive a difference between "democratic socialism" and "fascist communism".

Well there is no difference. If majority oppresses minority (democracy) - how is this different from Bolsheviks. You kill/take assets from the rich, make private entities illegal and then it is the same. If you allow freedom for people to open a shop to sell meat in your local area - well its capitalism then.

"how is that different" Because in the same way that society is not currently a poor-people-selling-their-organs free market dystopia, we don't have to charge headlong down the slippery slope of any given policy direction. We can make careful choices, establish rules that seek to prevent foreseeable problems, and have the flexibility to adjust course when unforeseeable issues arise.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#82

Post by raxxorrax »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #16
corporateslave5 wrote: post #6

[flagged]

I can't comment on US, but Germany and some other EU countries have fertility rate below 1.5. Without immigration the system will collapse as pensioners will outnumber working population. EDIT: this is an observation, I am not advocating 'substitution'

I don't agree with the parent comment at all and I know this is the current go-to policy solution, but considering all factors I believe this to be nothing less than complete lunacy.

Especially if the older generations take up that much space that younger people strugge to find a place on their own. It just makes sense in the context of our dilapidated pension system.

That won't work long term at all and life standards will probably decrease significantly in Germany in the future.

Instead of immigration, we actually should let the pension system collapse and see how we can supply the older generation in a more efficient way. Because the current one is evidently not sustainable.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#83

Post by yulaow »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #16
corporateslave5 wrote: post #6

[flagged]

I can't comment on US, but Germany and some other EU countries have fertility rate below 1.5. Without immigration the system will collapse as pensioners will outnumber working population. EDIT: this is an observation, I am not advocating 'substitution'

Honestly from a purely eco sustainability viewpoint I would prefer we keep low fertility rate everywhere until we halve the current human population.

It's is the economic system the one which should adapt.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#84

Post by pizzazzaro »

xienze wrote: post #15
wayoutthere wrote: post #8

In the US, it's less active protest and more things like slacking off heavily at work because it's a treadmill we can't win. We have absolutely no incentive to work hard when doing so doesn't materially affect income. We as a nation have basically told people "no, you can't have a comfortable life or save for retirement because your parents' generation still needs to get 10% annual growth to make their retirement mat…

> We have absolutely no incentive to work hard when doing so doesn't materially affect income. And you think that would improve under socialism or communism?

[dead]

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#85

Post by pvaldes »

jahaja wrote: post #2

Imagine if the current protests against inequality (and thereabouts) going on all around the world would be reported, scrutinized, and debated as much as when any of the established "enemies" have civil unrest. How quickly would things change?

Protests will not work, only young people deciding massively to vote a third party would make a dent on the current fossilised power inbalance. No matter how many times you ask for gun control or a fair healthcare system. It will not happen.

The alternative is what we are seeing in Europe, with students 15 yo playing real world Resident Evil in Barcelona with chainsaws and torches (and finding it more funny and rewarding than they expected)

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#86

Post by KirinDave »

isoskeles wrote: post #57
jahaja wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My kingdom for a single thread criticizing Capitalism without a response like this. People looking for social justice do not want Stalinism. Why would they?

You don’t want Stalinism, but you do want to limit the speech of people who disagree with what you want? Or you just wish and fantasize for it?

> You don’t want Stalinism, but you do want to limit the speech of people who disagree with what you want?

Asking for substantive debate free of tragic reactionary propaganda is not "limiting the speech" of people who disagree, it's asking for an intellectually honest forum for a discussion.

You're complaining because folks are tired of having important conversations hijacked with slippery slope falacies and the repetition of both USSR and USA propaganda. But that's a reasonable objection, and it's reasonable to ask that folks be minimally educated before engaging in a conversation.

If you're discussing machine learning and then someone comes in talking about how they pyramids taught them neural networking via a series of sines and cosines and also aliens (yes, this has happened to me in a public setting), you might be inclined to ask them to let the adults talk. That's not limiting speech, that's exercising your speech in opposition. They're fundamentally different things.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#87

Post by raxxorrax »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #41
jtcruthers wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, lets bring in loads of uneducated, poor immigrants instead of addressing the issues causing fertility rates below the replacement level. Why let our children have families when we can import them for cheaper?

> addressing the issues causing fertility rates below the replacement level Myself and many of my friends who have decided to have zero children or only one child rather late in life, cite the burden of having to take care of children, when one is already tired after work, one would like to pursue leisure activities that do not involve children present, etc. Even in countries where the state provides abundant infrast…

Just kill of the transfer system, since the solution is completely insane and obviously unstable.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#88

Post by tomp »

rolltiide wrote: post #75
xienze wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We have absolutely no incentive to work hard when doing so doesn't materially affect income. And you think that would improve under socialism or communism?

Since they didn’t say that you are presenting a false dilemma. Suggesting two binary extremes and ignoring the possibility of a spectrum of outcomes in a multifaceted problem We aren’t toddlers so try not use juvenile logic

Socialism is just a word that's used as "not capitalism". The point is, though, if the ownership of capitals (means of production) is so concentrated (1% own 90% of capital), then pretty much the only "solution" is effectively disowning them, consequences be damned. That's clearly in contrast to the spirit (and law) of capitalism, hence many (even capitalists) would simply call it "socialism" (or "communism"), even if it's completely different in the details (e.g. not everyone is paid the same).

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#89

Post by mumblemumble »

xienze wrote: post #15
wayoutthere wrote: post #8

In the US, it's less active protest and more things like slacking off heavily at work because it's a treadmill we can't win. We have absolutely no incentive to work hard when doing so doesn't materially affect income. We as a nation have basically told people "no, you can't have a comfortable life or save for retirement because your parents' generation still needs to get 10% annual growth to make their retirement mat…

> We have absolutely no incentive to work hard when doing so doesn't materially affect income. And you think that would improve under socialism or communism?

One thing that you could read into the parent post is that, to the people it's giving the shaft to, modern crony capitalism doesn't seem particularly distinguishable from socialism in a lot of ways.

You have the thing where the government is trying to control, or at least closely guide, the economy. You have the thing where those who are close to power subvert that to line their own pockets. You have the thing where people are being discincentivized to work hard because they see that hard work benefits others more than themselves. Interestingly, in the USA, you even have the mass incarceration, which otherwise only shows up in the versions of socialism that hail from the other side of the historical iron curtain and from (yes, I realize what I'm about to do here, but please remain calm, but I'm only wanting to draw a parallel to some very specific things here, and to call attention to the fact that not all forms of socialism are leftist) Germany starting in the 1930s.

To poke at the USA a bit more, yes, there are still plenty of salient differences between the USA and nominally socialist societies. But it strikes me that the most salient one is that, in the USA, you have units in the grade school curriculum devoted to indoctrinating kids on the idea that they are most definitely NOT a socialist country. Moreso as an article of faith than as a matter of fact.

Re: Think young people are hostile to capitalism now? Wait for the next recession

#90

Post by ClumsyPilot »

sol_remmy2 wrote: post #52
nohope wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you mean by "west"? Latin America (where I live), all the Africa and some poor european countries are "west" and those are not very good examples of prosperity. Even in "western" rich countries there is a lot of growing unequality. The capitalism is falling by itself.

> Latin America (where I live) is "west" and those are not very good examples of prosperity. Chile is a good example of a "western" latin american country. Brazil/Argentina are bad examples. Brazil for instance, has state-ownership of its entire oil industry - pretty textbook socialism.

US has state ownership of it's entire primary education - pretty textbook socialism.

Or maybe the divide isn't clear cut, perhaps?

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