The war inside Palantir: Data-mining firm ties to ICE under attack by employees • Hacker News Board

Re: The war inside Palantir: Data-mining firm ties to ICE under attack by employees

#191

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 9:42 PM UTC

nabnob wrote: post #147

CydeWeys wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source? Every news article I've seen shows that the problem is far worse under Trump.

It actually was higher under Obama - https://www.axios.com/immigration-ice-deportation-trump-obam... >By the numbers: Under the Obama administration, total ICE deportations were above 385,000 each year in fiscal years 2009-2011, and hit a high of 409,849 in fiscal 2012. The numbers dropped to below 250,000 in fiscal years 2015 and 2016. >Under Trump, ICE deportations fell to 226,119 in fiscal 2017, then ticked up to…

> It actually was higher under Obama

The rate of deportations wasn't the issue, the incidence and conditions of detention of children was the issue; the incidence of that was not as high, nor the conditions as bad, under Obama. But, even so:

> and hit a Trump administration high of 282,242 this fiscal year (as of June).

The federal fiscal years ends at the end of September, so “as of June” is 8-9 months of the year, depending on whether it's June 1, June 30, or somewhere in between, so it's on pace for 376k-423k, assuming a flat line throughout the year though continuing increase throughout the year might be more consistent with the year over year change. So, Trump started low in fiscal 2017 (which started under Obama and occurred largely while Trump was still getting people in place, with immigration policy focussed on fighting over the Muslim ban), and has rapidly reversed the deportation declines of the last 4 years of the Obama administration in the two years since, coming back up to a pace around or exceeding Obama’s peak year. So even if deportation numbers were the issue, your presentation would be misleading.

Re: The war inside Palantir: Data-mining firm ties to ICE under attack by employees

#192

Post by openasocket » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 9:46 PM UTC

wang_li wrote: post #190

openasocket wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crossing into the US not at a lawful port of entry to apply for asylum is legal. According to Title 8 Section 1158, in the first sentence: "Any alien who is physically present in the United States or who arrives in the United States (whether or not at a designated port of arrival and including an alien who is brought to the United States after having been interdicted in international or United States waters), irrespe…

Not sure precisely what point you're making, but it's possible that you're saying that the intention to apply for asylum provides you with legal rights to enter the US. That's not what the law says. If you're not saying that, then what you wrote is not responsive to the person you replied to.

> the intention to apply for asylum provides you with legal rights to enter the US

Sort of, yeah. Check out Akinmade v NIS as an example: https://openjurist.org/196/f3d/951 . Akinmade entered the US with a fake Canadian passport to request asylum. He was granted asylum

Re: The war inside Palantir: Data-mining firm ties to ICE under attack by employees

#193

Post by 1111236112347 » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 9:48 PM UTC

_bxg1 wrote: post #108

1111236112347 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this an either/or choice? Does HSI have to not exist in order to prevent reprehensible treatment of migrant families? Conversely, would eliminating HSI prevent such reprehensible treatment of migrant families? Wouldn't the abuses just pop up elsewhere, given the agenda of the current administration?

> Does HSI have to not exist in order to prevent reprehensible treatment of migrant families? It sure seems that way. And people often forget that we didn't have these agencies at all before 9/11, and we did just fine. Metal detectors and stronger cockpit doors are well and good, but what we have are agencies that were created in a time of extreme fear, and have held on to fear as their guiding ethos. > Wouldn't the…

> And people often forget that we didn't have these agencies at all before 9/11, and we did just fine.

ICE wasn't created out of thin air, it was formed by merging and reorganizing existing organizations including Customs and INS.

> We're giving people license to commit whatever thuggish, nationalistic fantasies they want, all sanctioned under some vague "rule of law" argument where the letter has far, far outstripped the spirit.

I agree this is happening and we need to do something to stop it. At the same time, I don't believe this is the only thing that's happening in ICE, as it's a large and complex organization.

> if ICE were abolished overnight, I would throw a party.

If that happened but the fundamental issue of nationalism and lack of concern for human rights was not addressed, I think we could end up in an even worse place than we are currently.

I'm not against abolishing ICE, but I don't think it's a solution in itself. The fundamental issue, in my opinion, is a lack of empathy and understanding for people who seem different, and it's happening on a large scale. I believe that is a much harder issue to tackle compared to restructuring our federal bureaucracy, but that's what we should be focusing on to make a real, lasting impact. Restructuring without addressing the underlying issue seems like a placebo that would do more harm than good.

Re: The war inside Palantir: Data-mining firm ties to ICE under attack by employees

#194

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 9:53 PM UTC

_bxg1 wrote: post #108

1111236112347 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this an either/or choice? Does HSI have to not exist in order to prevent reprehensible treatment of migrant families? Conversely, would eliminating HSI prevent such reprehensible treatment of migrant families? Wouldn't the abuses just pop up elsewhere, given the agenda of the current administration?

> Does HSI have to not exist in order to prevent reprehensible treatment of migrant families? It sure seems that way. And people often forget that we didn't have these agencies at all before 9/11, and we did just fine. Metal detectors and stronger cockpit doors are well and good, but what we have are agencies that were created in a time of extreme fear, and have held on to fear as their guiding ethos. > Wouldn't the…

> And people often forget that we didn't have these agencies at all before 9/11, and we did just fine.

Sure, the post-9/11 reorganization precedes the current abuses, but I don't see a clear argument that it is somehow fundamental to them. Border Patrol and ICE seem to be the main agencies implementing the problem policies; Border Patrol predates the reports, INS’s enforcement arm would have been in ICE’s role before, but I don't see why that would have made the situation better in an Administration with the same general policy organization.

Re: The war inside Palantir: Data-mining firm ties to ICE under attack by employees

#195

Post by wpietri » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 9:53 PM UTC

immaway wrote: post #145

wpietri wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. I think it's reasonable (although perhaps naive) for people to have a sunny view of law enforcement. Especially when, like me, they're white men from middle-class backgrounds; I've never had a bad experience with law enforcement, despite having done some stupendously dumb-ass things. But even though I'm predisposed to view cops favorably, the stuff with ICE is shocking to me. America has a big chunk of histo…

Enforcing the rules that people have to obey to get and stay in the country. That isn't ethnic cleansing. Plenty of people who are not white people come to the country legally every year.

If you are unable to see how recent rhetoric around immigrants fits historical patterns, I'm not sure how I can help you. Also, you talk about "the rules" as if they had nothing to do with America's history of racism, but historically it's pretty clear they do.

It is true that plenty of non-white people come legally to the US. But that doesn't mean that there aren't problems with how those people are treated, or that there isn't bias against those people involved.

Re: The war inside Palantir: Data-mining firm ties to ICE under attack by employees

#196

Post by fzeroracer » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 9:56 PM UTC

onepointsixC wrote: post #161

sdenton4 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember the Muslim ban? That was racist. You know, for starters...

Banning visas from a list of failed states was not racist. You can say the rhetoric surrounding it was, but not the policy itself.

So if someone was to say, 'We're going to criminalize Marijuana usage because it'll predominately affect black communities' followed by a law that says 'Marijuana is now illegal' are you insinuating that the policy would not be racist?

Rhetoric in many cases informs policy and vice versa. You can't just say they exist in a vacuum when the reason why the visa ban occured was on racial pretenses.

Re: The war inside Palantir: Data-mining firm ties to ICE under attack by employees

#197

Post by nailer » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 10:01 PM UTC

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #121

nailer wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might be really uneducated here - I'm not American. All I know about ICE is that they're immigration and customs enforcement - they're basically the US's border force. The quality of the conditions they keep migrants in is poor, and has been for years. OK. Why is that worthy of a boycott? Your democratically elected governments create the laws, and determine the funding for things like beds and toys etc. Boycotts i…

ICE isn't the border force. All border security operations, stopping people from crossing and customs inspections and such, are done by a different agency called CBP.

OK. Why not change the law, if you want to make undocumented migration legal?

Re: The war inside Palantir: Data-mining firm ties to ICE under attack by employees

#198

Post by 1111236112347 » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 10:01 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #24

qazpot wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am assuming ICE is "U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement". I am not from USA but why every comment here is implying ICE to be some evil thing.

ICE's recent policy of separating children from their families and then holding them in inadequate conditions with insufficient medical care is starting to produce tiny coffins: https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-migrant-child-border-de...

This article is about CBP, which is not part of ICE, and ICE is not mentioned anywhere in it.

I'm not raising this point to be pedantic or discount the tragedy. I just think it's important to have an accurate understanding of the organizational structure if one wants to make meaningful changes to it.

Re: The war inside Palantir: Data-mining firm ties to ICE under attack by employees

#199

Post by wwweston » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 10:15 PM UTC

word-reader wrote: post #137

wpietri wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. I think it's reasonable (although perhaps naive) for people to have a sunny view of law enforcement. Especially when, like me, they're white men from middle-class backgrounds; I've never had a bad experience with law enforcement, despite having done some stupendously dumb-ass things. But even though I'm predisposed to view cops favorably, the stuff with ICE is shocking to me. America has a big chunk of histo…

Over 50% of Border Patrol officers are Hispanic; 20% of all ICE employees are Hispanic, with much higher percentage (e.g. 40%) in subsets such as field agents in Southern California.

Since it's perfectly well established at this point that one can be part of a given identity class while still supporting or actively enforcing behavior that's discriminatory towards the same identity class (not to mention inhumane in other ways), this is pretty much a red herring.

Re: The war inside Palantir: Data-mining firm ties to ICE under attack by employees

#200

Post by 1111236112347 » Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 10:19 PM UTC

jakear wrote: post #92

tempsy wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also don't understand this. Seems like if you were willing to work for Palantir before this made news you'd have understood that surveillance tech to police depts, corporations, etc. is exactly what the company sells/enables. I did have a recruiter reach out a long time ago and remember they did actually pitch the social good use case of helping law enforcement find and arrest criminals involved in child prostituti…

I had a recruiter reach out, and I actually played along with their interview process, but at every step of the way I’d inquire about the company’s ethics. Nailed all the tech questions, but in the end did not get an offer. Maybe I didn’t do as well as I thought I did on the tech, or maybe Palantir recruiting is selecting for people who don’t ask questions.

To add another data point, I interviewed at Palantir and asked questions about ethics and transparency at every reasonable opportunity: during recruiter outreach, during the product presentation given to the group of candidates interview that same day, in my interview with the hiring manager, and with C-level person who did the final interview.

Each person I talked to acknowledged that the issues I raised were legitimate, and I still received an offer.