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Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

japantimes.co.jp

191–200 of 262 posts

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#191
post #19

Why can't we just write names as "Smith, John" when it's in the Asian order and "John Smith" or "John·Smith" if its in the Western order? It would remove all the ambiguity using already existing conventions.

It disregards the cultural history of names to suit what’s easiest for Western Europeans to understand.

When a Western newspaper writes in the English language for a Western audience, isn't the most important thing to make articles clear and easy to understand? I understand that it's also important to respect the culture and language and the background of the person that you write about, but I guess unless you really want to have the Japanese characters in your English newspaper, it's a trade-off.

I live in Japan, my children are half-Japanese (with my foreign family name), but I have to say it'd be weird to see an article that writes about, say, "Tom Smith and his daughter Smith Hanako". Similarly, reading a Japanese text, seeing "トム・スミスと娘のスミス花子" (tomu sumisu to musume no sumisu hanako) would feel weirdly inconsistent.

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#192
post #177

I was working on a personal project recently which involved importing lots of Japanese names into a database for my app. I had originally made a "person" table with columns for "given_name" and "family_name" – but ended up going with a combined "name" column because I couldn't find a reliable way to determine if data from different sources was using the given-first or family-first convention (and I was automatically…

Ah, you have discovered one of the Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names[0]. [0]: https://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-...

OP specifically said “Japanese names” which are bound by strict registry policies and do not have any exceptions.

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#193

I was working on a personal project recently which involved importing lots of Japanese names into a database for my app. I had originally made a "person" table with columns for "given_name" and "family_name" – but ended up going with a combined "name" column because I couldn't find a reliable way to determine if data from different sources was using the given-first or family-first convention (and I was automatically…

Whenever I'm on a team building something new, I've fought hard to stop people from splitting names into first/last. There's simply no right way to do it. In addition to conventions like family name first in Japan, Spanish naming conventions create confusion (First Paternal_Family Maternal_Family), and there are rare outliers like mononyms as well. There is almost no use case--aside from perhaps a genealogy site--whe…

What about sorting, reordering (as in the article), or allowing the user to pick preferred order? Also allowing other data such as phonetic name to be applied per name (again useful for sorting and other features).

There are tons of reasons to split names and I’m just a basic user of contacts apps. This all comes to mind immediately since Apple splits names and Google doesn’t, making Apple products much more useful and elegant with Japanese names.

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That has nothing to do with name ordering. This discussion is about name order. I didn't think I had to spell that out considering the article is about name ordering. I should've been more specific.

> That has nothing to do with name ordering. It has exactly to do with name ordering, since the source of the issue is that the nearest equivalent of the English last name is actually the penultimate rather than final element of the name in the order at issue.

I disagree that this is about ordering. In no ordinary circumstances does that person's name become Peña Nieto Enrique, in that order.

His name uses the Spanish naming system whereby both the mother and father's name are included — like an English double-barrelled name without a hyphen — which is not affected by whether the given or family name(s) come(s) first.

Therefore, the issue is not about ordering, it's about name segmentation and culture-specific name boundaries; the issue is where given names end and family names begin, not what order they're in.

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#195
post #149
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we're pretty close with English, or it's at least the best candidate. Most of the knowledge recently produced (since WWII) is in it, and the world's largest economy uses it. It's also taken a little something from every one. With that said, I think national pride will prevent such a thing happening. As an American, I wouldn't want to learn someone else's language as a "common tongue", though have no objection…

It will depend on how long the US remains the reigning power. If China bowls the US over, English can be undone fairly quickly. Mandarin is spoken by 20% of the world population.

I would imagine the writing system to be a large stumbling block for the rest of the world.

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#196

I think this is the start of the hockey stick graph in the unicode-ification of the world We are becoming a closer more integrated world and we will find it waaaaay easier to have common shared conventions and regulations - but that does not mean we all choose an existing one, (ie cultural hegemony) we just migrate to a new one, more complex perhaps but one that fits (more or less) everybody. It's fascinating (been f…

In this example the Japanese are actually asking foreign media outlets to switch to the naming conventions they already use for Korea and China, $LASTNAME $FIRSTNAME. (E.g. Tsai Ing-wen, Xi Jinping, Kim Jong-un, Moon Jae-in, and now Abe Shinzo)

So Japan isn't converging with the rest of the dominant Western convention.

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#197
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Bond. James Bond" covers all the options.

“Please bring coffee for mister Jamesbond. So, dear Bond, how was your trip?”

You don't just misspell his surname, but you serve him coffee rather than a shaken (not stirred) Martini...? You sir, are an evil villain.

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#198
post #79
post #67

So does this mean the Minister's name is Tara KONO or Kono TARA? I can't tell from this article. I totally understand people wanting to have their names written correctly, but if the reader is confused, is that going to help people to understand one's name correctly? In the US, I don't think it would.

Represented as the Minister proposes, it would be KONO Tarо̄. This relies on a bit of cultural knowledge; 太郎 (Tarо̄) is a very common first name for males in Japan. The article is a smidge ironic, though; in this article about proposing a Last First standard, the Times refers to the promulgator via First Last. I suppose they're technically in keeping with current standards by using First Last, since the Minister's pr…

> The article is a smidge ironic, though

It is reporting an intention from a minister. When and if the minister actually acts on it, by extending an official request from the Japanese Government, I guess they will respond officially in some way. There is no need to drop one's pants just because a minister opened his mouth.

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#199
post #149
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we're pretty close with English, or it's at least the best candidate. Most of the knowledge recently produced (since WWII) is in it, and the world's largest economy uses it. It's also taken a little something from every one. With that said, I think national pride will prevent such a thing happening. As an American, I wouldn't want to learn someone else's language as a "common tongue", though have no objection…

It will depend on how long the US remains the reigning power. If China bowls the US over, English can be undone fairly quickly. Mandarin is spoken by 20% of the world population.

English is not the obstacle; the Latin alphabet is.

There is a much higher chance that Western countries could move from English to another Latin-alphabet language (e.g. Spanish) than to any language rooted in ideograms. Which is why, for example, Japanese has made no real inroads despite 40 years of massive economic influence.

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#200

What's next? Make us drive on the right side of the street? Hard pass on any attempt to make Japan more like the rest of the world... Except maybe when it comes to fax machines. We should really let those things die.

If you read the article, you'd see that is the opposite of what is being requested.
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