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At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

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Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#191

Post by whack »

dalbasal wrote: post #126

I think it's worth thinking about the history of incarceration, for context. Until fairly recently, prison wasn't really the way most punishments worked. They did hangings, beatings, shaming, banishment... Imprisoning people long term is expensive, and kings probably couldn't have afforded anything like a modern scale prison system. The closest thing was more slavery than imprisonment, and economically self-sufficien…

Ironically enough, long term imprisonment is quite possibly the worst way of inflicting punishment, while simultaneously being more cruel and antithetical to rehabilitation. Whatever our goals, there are surely better ways of achieving them.

https://outlookzen.com/2016/06/18/we-need-cruel-and-unusual-...

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#192

Post by solidsnack9000 »

fxj wrote: post #121
solidsnack9000 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Healthcare isn’t state owned, or even single payer in Switzerland. Everyone pays for their own insurance. The rate they pay is fixed by the state but all the assets — the insurance companies, the hospitals, the insurance policies — are in private hands. In Germany none of that stuff is state owned, either. This is one of the strangest things about the healthcare debate in the United States: we frequently contrast our…

It is called gesetzliche Krankenversicherung in Germany https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesetzliche_Krankenversicherun... and is 100% state-controlled.

Thank you for the reference. The insurance companies — die Krankenkassen — are indeed state controlled and there are careful and very specific regulations regarding their funding and expenditures. Everyone is obliged to be in one and they are all expected to provide certain basic services.

That’s not the same thing as being state owned. Everyone has to be in one but there isn’t only one. Some are connected to regions and some to major industrial consortiums, like Audi.

It’s a small distinction, perhaps — but falsity proves anything. If it’s not state owned, it’s not, and we might as well not obscure debate about the US healthcare system with untruth.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#193

Post by dragonwriter »

throwawaymath wrote: post #184
chmod775 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At the very least, rehabilitation doesn't work very well. WHAT! > Rehabilitation sounds societally useful, but the failures have been overwhelming. Justice? Deterrence? WHAT! Mind sharing some sources? IMHO you have it completely backwards. I can point to plenty of European countries (Norway, Germany, Netherlands, etc.) that focus on rehabilitation, not punishment. Their recidivism and overall crime-rates rates are…

I think you misinterpreted their point. They don't mean rehabilitation as an ideal doesn't work. They mean rehabilitation as the goal of modern American incarceration has failed. People don't get rehabilitated. They become institutional criminals.

> They mean rehabilitation as the goal of modern American incarcetation has failed.

It has not failed, because it is not, and has never been, in any meaningful sense, the goal of any of the American criminal justice systems.

Specifically, none of them have been in any substantive way been designed around any evidence of what does or does not work in terms of rehabilitation.

The US criminal justice systems focus on retribution and demonstration of moral outrage, not rehabilitation.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#194

Post by dragonwriter »

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #178
minikites wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By "an activist group" do you mean "people against actual slavery"?

By "an activist group" I mean people who confuse work with slavery. People in prison eat what they're given, sleep when they're told, have (almost) no personal property and are at mercy of the administration on many other issues. Work is one of the greatest things a human being can do. Working doesn't make an otherwise free person a slave.

> By "an activist group" I mean people who confuse work with slavery.

You mean, people who confuse forced work with slavery.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#195

Post by mikejb »

muzani wrote: post #187
digianarchist wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

7 years for something that would have probably gotten him 6-12 months in Europe/Canada. When are the Americans going to realise you can't punitively punish someone and not reap of profound negative consequences (re-offending, home-breaking etc.).

It's not just punitive. Some (not all) people are broken, unfixable, and dangerous. The idea is to just isolate them from society.

I agree that a human can be 'broken', but broken people should get psychiatric care, not prison.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#196

Post by foobarian »

lb1lf wrote: post #175
dalbasal wrote: post #126

I think it's worth thinking about the history of incarceration, for context. Until fairly recently, prison wasn't really the way most punishments worked. They did hangings, beatings, shaming, banishment... Imprisoning people long term is expensive, and kings probably couldn't have afforded anything like a modern scale prison system. The closest thing was more slavery than imprisonment, and economically self-sufficien…

Rehabilitation IS societally useful. However, it does require that the prime focus is rehabilitation rather than punishment. In my native Norway, rehabilitation has been the focus to such an extent that foreign media come to do stories on the 'holiday camps' prison time is served in. It somehow works, though. Recidivism is very low. Here's a few examples on how inmates do their time -Education is encouraged - whether…

I feel the difference is that Norway is far more homogeneous and the intent to rehabilitate is sincere. On the other hand I feel like a lot of the criminal justice system in the USA is segregationist under the covers. When you look at it this way then it's working as desired.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#197

Post by hourislate »

digianarchist wrote: post #177
bluedino wrote: post #166

I have a cousin 2 years younger than me who's getting out of prison today . He just finished a 2 year stint for violating probation. When you get caught drunk driving with a gun in the car, then tend to send you back behind bars. In reality, he had two other offenses in the time before that, which should have been enough. His first sentence was 7 years for theft. He was part of a group of ~ 20 year olds that were bre…

7 years for something that would have probably gotten him 6-12 months in Europe/Canada. When are the Americans going to realise you can't punitively punish someone and not reap of profound negative consequences (re-offending, home-breaking etc.).

What about the man in Toronto who shooed away a Raccoon with a broom? He had to fight for his life to avoid jail and payed a pretty hefty fine.

https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2013/03/12/man_who_attack...

Canada is very light on it's criminals. Child Molesters, Rapists and even murderers tend to spend little time behind bars with little consequence for their actions.

Here is another article about how broken Canadian Law is.

https://www.straight.com/blogra/canadian-justice-system-so-b...

Just recently a young boy was beaten to death by a repeat offender in Winnipeg. The animal broke into the boys home and beat him to death while the child tried to protect his Grandmother. The media won't even tell you the animals name or anything about him. I will be surprised if he gets any jail time.

I wouldn't be proud of Canada's punishment of criminals.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#198

Post by NeedMoreTea »

dalbasal wrote: post #126

I think it's worth thinking about the history of incarceration, for context. Until fairly recently, prison wasn't really the way most punishments worked. They did hangings, beatings, shaming, banishment... Imprisoning people long term is expensive, and kings probably couldn't have afforded anything like a modern scale prison system. The closest thing was more slavery than imprisonment, and economically self-sufficien…

In Britain under the Bloody Code, you could (and would) be hanged, or deported for the most trivial offences. The prevailing view was very much of the pour encourager les autres mould.

Steal items worth 12 pence? Hanged. Lesser amount? Cut a hand off. If lucky, commuted and deported for indentured servitude in the colonies. Treason? Hanged, drawn and quartered.

As we remember from history classes, stealing, murder and other crime ceased to exist by the 17th century. Oh, hang on a minute. It was so ineffective that juries started nullifying and deliberately under-valuing property to avoid the incessant death penalties. It was just yet another means to oppress the lower orders. Unsurprisingly much of the 18th century consisted of successive legal reforms.

What works? Not prisons, not punishment, but rehabilitation. proven time and time and time again. Not very popular with the hang 'em and flog 'em types on the right though.

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#199

Post by pbhjpbhj »

avenius wrote: post #153
dalbasal wrote: post #126

I think it's worth thinking about the history of incarceration, for context. Until fairly recently, prison wasn't really the way most punishments worked. They did hangings, beatings, shaming, banishment... Imprisoning people long term is expensive, and kings probably couldn't have afforded anything like a modern scale prison system. The closest thing was more slavery than imprisonment, and economically self-sufficien…

IIRC incarceration was a method started by christian monks, and the intention was that the incarcerated would use the time to reflect and contemplate his crimes - a form of rehabilitation. As you say, that certainly isn't what's happening today. Instead it gives criminals a broader network, and my impression is that it works sort of like a "crime school". But the US method of privatizing and profiteering off of impri…

The Bible records Joseph as being put in prison in Egypt c.1500 BCE.

Peter is imprisoned in the NT c.30 CE.

Perhaps you meant incarceration with a view to rehabilitation?

Re: At $75K, housing a prisoner in California now costs more than a year at Harvard

#200

Post by bluedino »

sethammons wrote: post #189
digianarchist wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

7 years for something that would have probably gotten him 6-12 months in Europe/Canada. When are the Americans going to realise you can't punitively punish someone and not reap of profound negative consequences (re-offending, home-breaking etc.).

Most crime is likely related to being poor, but this case shows someone who chronically chooses crime, even when they had a job. How do you "fix" that? There are people who will work hard to avoid being good. There are people who enjoy being bad, who enjoy hurting others, who enjoy screwing over others. How do you fix that? I'd contend that the best thing to do is remove those people from society. The American system…

>> Most crime is likely related to being poor

Some crime could be. Theft, burglary. But Assualt? Motor vehicle theft? DUI? Murder? Weapons violations? Vandalism? Child abuse?

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