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Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

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Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#191

Post by telchar »

rrobukef wrote: post #100
richardthered wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with forcing someone to reveal a secret (e.g. a password), is that ultimately, there's no way to prove that someone actually knows the password. If I say that I forgot the password, and a judge throws me in jail for contempt of court, I could rot there forever. There is absolutely no way for me to ever prove that I truly forgot the password. You can't prove a negative. With fingerprints or face scanning,…

Actually, there is a fingerprint in my phone. It isn't any of my fingers (I can't recall, maybe my elbow). Will I be in contempt of court for scanning my finger 'wrong'. I don't think my elbow will work a month later, it must have changed more than my finger.

I don't see why this is downvoted, parent brings up a good point. If a phone has a fingerprint or face lock, there is proof whose fingerprint or face (or whether it is a fingerprint or face) is the key. Is that knowledge not similar to a password? If the phone requires a PIN or passcode after say, 3 attempts, that's important information.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#192

Post by sathackr »

IgorPartola wrote: post #181
sathackr wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue arises when the knowledge of the password itself is incriminating. The 5th amendment prohibits forced self incrimination. Forcing a suspect to divulge information that is directly incriminating will not stand constitutional review, regardless of the nature of the information. You have the right to remain silent.

If your password is “I killed him and the body is hidden under my deck” and that’s the literal crime you are being charged with, sure. But your password is usually not an admission of a crime, so that’s not the argument. Even if your encrypted laptop contains evidence, you cannot plead the fifth if the prosecutors know it’s there. As long as they can get a warrant and when they get the data say “see your honor? Here…

Not quite.

It depends on what you are charged with.

In a case of say, possession of stolen information, the laws of possession applied to contraband such as drugs would likely apply.

Since the information wouldn't be in your actual possession(literally in your hands or on your person), then they would fall under constructive possession laws.

In most states, constructive possession has 3 parts --

1) You must have knowledge of the presence of the contraband

2) You must know of the contraband's illicit nature

3) You must have the ability to exercise dominion and control over the contraband.

If I slip an encrypted thumb drive full of stolen trade secrets into your suitcase at the airport, you're not automatically in possession of those things because, absent any other information, none of the rules above could be satisfied.

But, if you knew the encryption key to the thumb drive, then that is evidence against you and that knowledge would be protected under the 5th amendment.

If police find a random iPhone in your house that you share with a roommate, they would have to prove constructive possession to tie anything found on that device to you. Knowledge of the password, regardless of what the password is, would be protected under the 5th amendment.

In both cases, the authorities could not compel you to incriminate yourself by forcing you to disclose your knowledge of the password to the device.

IANAL either. If you are ever in such a situation, be prepared to sit in prison for 10 years while you work your way through the appellate courts, because you're in for a long battle.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#193

Post by KingMachiavelli »

sandworm101 wrote: post #185
77pt77 wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can they possibly know that? If that is the case then there should be no problem convicting him.

They had access to the drive at one point. In a filesharing seneario it is common for feds to see what you got before the raid that grabs the physical drive.

In the file sharing scenario, how would the feds know that the encrypted drive actually has the files? They can only know what they suspect is on the drive.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#194

Post by topmonk »

sokoloff wrote: post #165
nerdponx wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will be interesting what happens at airports. Nominally, the reason they check your bag at the airport is for security. But in the process they can find all sorts of other stuff that isn't dangerous to fly with but is illegal, e.g. marijuana. So the whole thing becomes an avenue to warrantless search. You can't make the same argument about a computer or phone -- you can't bring down a plane or hurt anyone by havin…

How does TSA know your giant laptop is really a laptop and not a bomb inside a laptop case? One indicator is whether it powers up and you can log into it. (I'm not saying I love that answer, but it's a better indicator than just popping up a backlit lock screen [which could be a sheet of acetate with a fixed image])

A raspberry pi could display a login prompt. The rest could be contraband.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#195

Post by int_19h »

jdc wrote: post #126
umvi wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More like: Police: "We have a warrant for your apartment, let us in" Suspect: "Sorry, I lost the key when I went hiking in the Rocky Mountains, there's no way in. Oh, and be aware that if you try to force your way in more than 5 times, the apartment will catch fire and destroy everything inside" What would happen in this case? Can the suspect be held in contempt?

Probably obstruction of justice IMHO

Doesn't that require intent and planning? If the arrangements were in place before the crime was even planned, how can it be obstruction?

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#196

Post by int_19h »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #166
brian-armstrong wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't you confusing property with ideas? I agree, the physical phone itself should be part of discovery. Authorities should be allowed to physically disassemble the phone and inspect its insides or run forensic tests on it. The content on the phone is a matter of interpretation, subject to proper decryption. It is just an idea, no different from decoding ideas in somebody's journal. It makes no sense to talk about d…

1's and 0's representing words are the same thing as ink blots in the form of characters representing words.

So, if you encrypt your paper journal, can you be compelled to decrypt it?

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#197

Post by dpark »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #152
dpark wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A guy with a gun in my face can have my PIN. I’ll also happily provide my fingerprint or look at my phone to unlock it. This idea that digital security is going to solve for physical violence is absurd unless you’re willing to die to protect your digital assets.

> unless you’re willing to die I feel like that's getting the threat model wrong. The mugger wants to spend as little time with you as possible. If a fingerprint is needed to make purchases, then it can actually be significantly better than a PIN, and even a PIN is a lot better than nothing because they have to memorize it.

Sure. Have a fingerprint or PIN or whatever. Totally reasonable. Mugger takes your phone in a rush, can’t unlock it later, sells it for $10 to someone who’ll gut it for the pieces. Sucks, but not as bad as the mugger also emptying your bank account.

But my response is to the belief that a security factor that cannot be directly taken by force is somehow more secure. If you’re guarding The Football, sure. You might actually be willing to die for that. If you’re willing to die rather than reveal your PIN to a mugger, though, your advice is not applicable to the vast majority of the population who value their lives more than their bank accounts.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#198

Post by int_19h »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #10
SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even forensic science can be used questionably. Really, once you're in the court room it's entirely rhetoric and fudge-factor.

Agreed. Pretty much everything in forensic science turns out to be junk science over a long enough timeline. Hair, bite marks, fire progression, all junk. There's even a few cracks in the fingerprint wall. Don't get me started on all the field test kits of various types that LEOs use. The only things that seem to be reliable are things that don't have their roots in forensic science (e.g. using DNA to identify people…

While we're at it, most of "ballistic fingerprinting", as well.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#199

Post by oskkejdjdkjd »

darkpuma wrote: post #144
mLuby wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guilt is orthogonal to due process. What if the kid hadn't committed the murder but was duped into making incriminating statements anyway? Furthermore, considering testimony given while under the influence is ridiculous.

> "What if the kid hadn't committed the murder but was duped into making incriminating statements anyway?" Then maybe it would make a better example for discussions like this. As it stands, that anecdote is little more than "the police are good at their jobs and they caught a murderer which is unambiguously good for everybody, but what if they were instead using their skills for something bad?" > "Furthermore, consid…

As long as a witch is burned who cares how they did it? Cops lying and deceiving is fundamentally wrong. Don’t pretend that it’s required for police to get convictions. There are other ways.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#200

Post by dpark »

gbaygon wrote: post #139
dpark wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A guy with a gun in my face can have my PIN. I’ll also happily provide my fingerprint or look at my phone to unlock it. This idea that digital security is going to solve for physical violence is absurd unless you’re willing to die to protect your digital assets.

obligatory https://xkcd.com/538/ edit: - sorry if it's annoying but for me it was a very graphical way to always remember this issue.

Not annoying, just Hacker News. Funny/cute/meme/etc typically gets downvoted, even if it’s directly relevant, because of the strong fear of turning into the circle jerk of endless shitty joke threads like Reddit.
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