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VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

reuters.com

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Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#191

Post by icebraining »

yourapostasy wrote: post #119
21 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt it. Losing a job is not an excuse to do illegal tasks, especially when you have a senior well payed job and are not exactly scraping by. In some cases you might even be required to report such illegal requests to some authority.

> In some cases you might even be required to report such illegal requests to some authority. That's absurdly naive of the laws. At this level of management and up, these requests are not passed along in a traceable, litigable form, unless you have spectacularly unaware executives performing the demands. Look how far out of hand it had to get at Wells Fargo before there was action, and how long it took at VW before t…

That's absurdly naive of the laws.

Is it? The report triggers the investigation, which can then compel the reporter to provide those lessons. It doesn't have to end at the report. Of course, knowing that, the person is less likely to report - which is why these laws exist.

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#192

Post by icebraining »

dom0 wrote: post #133
alkonaut wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was also very curious how they managed to get my '09 "fixed" somehow via a simple software patch. I would have understood it if it had lost 20% performance or got 20% higher fuel consumption - but that didn't happen. So: if it was that easy to fix legally why did they cheat in the first place?? Of course it can't be that easy. So of course my car is still polluting over the limit. And I think this is a story that i…

> That also answers why the German government is giving them some leeway here: it's not exactly in their interest to kill Volkswagen. While the federal government does not have a direct stake (apart from all the tax euros), the fine state of Lower Saxony holds a 20 % share (which actually causes the MP and his economics minister to always be on the board of directors).

Why would prosecuting the executives kill WV, though?

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#193

Post by icebraining »

norikki wrote: post #86
jonas21 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One higher executive (Oliver Schmidt) has pleaded guilty and is awaiting sentencing. The others are German citizens living in Germany and can't be extradited. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/04/business/volkswagen-diese...

Yes because criminally corrupt executives can not be extradided, but if Julian Assange steps outside he'll get a bag over his head and a one-way trip to Guantanamo Bay.

Julian Assange is not a German citizen living in Germany.

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#194

Post by jo67 »

w_t_payne wrote: post #183

The German automotive industry has a very aggressive culture. Our (German) managers put enormous pressure on us to do whatever it took to win deals. I can clearly remember watching one of our engineering managers turning a very unhealthy shade of green (~= #d2dbc9) as her boss turned the metaphorical screws to pressure her to win our segment's first big deal -- Ironically with VW as the customer. Shamefully, I stayed…

But I am sure she got promoted and is now giving talks at B schools and on TED stages to young minds on how to make it.

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#195

Post by matthberg »

> Liang is one of the lowest-ranking executives charged so far.

While I approve of strict punishments for such terrible actions, I worry that this is a case of a "scapegoat" being advertised as punished, so that the real decision makers higher up can go with lighter reprimands. Since the scapegoat is guilty of the crime, the deception is much easier.

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#196

Post by Reason077 »

dom0 wrote: post #175
simonh wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many other car manufacturers broke the law in this way? We're none of the ones that didn't competitive? What a patently ridiculous argument.

Last time I checked all tested diesel cars displayed anomalies between their supposed emissions and their actual emissions. So at this point: Likely all car makers. And while this hasn't been public knowledge, it is not that surprising, because it has been public knowledge how much the mileage tests are gamed, so it's not surprising that all other tests are gamed as well (and, specifically, using defeat devices is al…

The technology exists for diesel engines to meet emissions regulations. However, German car-makers secretly formed an agreement not to use certain emissions reduction technologies (such as large, refillable AdBlue tanks) in order to save money:

https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/24/16021292/german-car-compa...

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#197

Post by rurban »

okreallywtf wrote: post #97
rurban wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but will the executives involved be held to the same legal standard Yes, they will, but Germany will not extradite them. They already made that clear. And it is very unlikely that the german court system will prosecute them. Haven't heard anything yet, because this might inflict the politicians who backed this Diesel emission testing system for decades. They didn't even go to the technical root yet. Only one made t…

Why will they not, do they fear they will not get a fair trial in the US or will be punished worse than their crimes dictate?

Because they knew it upfront. The whole Diesel testing system was rigged to eliminate costly end machine testing as done in the US, which historically led to costly cheating on the roll by the US manifacturers. They paid experts passing those tests which were paid as much as a Formula 1 driver. So the Europeans improved that to reproducible test cases, and much cheaper, only with the engine.

So when the problem with the overly large AdBlue tanks came up, the Europeans knew they can cheat that away, because legally they thought they can get away with it. The engine test passed legally, and there was no legal framework to protect actual sold cars from emitting too much NOx. This is of course entirely the fault of the politicians, which were of course lobbied into that, and didn't ask much. That's why VW insisted all the time that they acted legally in Europe. In the US of course not, because in the US the big three always had the advantage of special drivers to pass the emission tests. So they still don't fear any legal woes in Europe.

So the strategy is to keep calm, and protect the rest of the industry, the politicians, the workers, change the ECU's, and either add bigger tanks or change AdBlue more often. It's insane to ask for 2 years AdBlue storage anyway. 6 months if enough. And the good engines can pass the new EURO 6 limits, because their injection system is highly optimized. Those engines are miles better and more effective than a normal otto, which enables them to actually use the crap diesel oil. Problematic are only the overly large engines or the cheap ones.

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#198

Post by rurban »

dom0 wrote: post #175
simonh wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many other car manufacturers broke the law in this way? We're none of the ones that didn't competitive? What a patently ridiculous argument.

Last time I checked all tested diesel cars displayed anomalies between their supposed emissions and their actual emissions. So at this point: Likely all car makers. And while this hasn't been public knowledge, it is not that surprising, because it has been public knowledge how much the mileage tests are gamed, so it's not surprising that all other tests are gamed as well (and, specifically, using defeat devices is al…

There were a few who actually didn't cheat, or pulled out of the market. Opel is a prominent one as I remember.

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#199

Post by rurban »

leipert wrote: post #176
rurban wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the Volkswagen AG would be the only culprit. So far it looks like Audi persuaded Bosch to add the cheat detection code into it's ECU used in almost every Diesel car, and consequently almost every car was using it. The scandal is much bigger than VW.

FYI: Audi is part of the VW AG.

FYI: Audi is the technological part of VW who actually develops and produces the engines. VW has not much to do with engines. Audi and Porsche also do own VW.

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#200

Post by throwitaway333 »

I worked on a 'sharing economy' service writing software. We had a project that boiled down to "we've found a legal way to start skimming tips without the users realizing it". It was technically legal. It was completely unethical. It was bullshit.

I called management out on it, said that I did not want to wind up like a "rogue engineer" at VW when the shit hits the fan, because I felt our upper management would gladly throw us all under the bus. "Don't worry, this is all perfectly legal within the contracts". They didn't understand the difference between "this is illegal" and "this is unethical".

I quit the company. I won't put loyalty to a company head of ethics, morals.

These VW engineers? Maybe the executives were the big fish who made the call, but they were the ones who agreed to make it happen. They are just as liable, in my view.

(I hear the project was eventually canned. The users who were beta tested on it immediately realized what was happening and threatened to quit.)

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