Live data from Hacker News

EU Parliament calls for longer lifetime for products

eubusiness.com

191–200 of 241 posts

Re: EU Parliament calls for longer lifetime for products

#191
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My family encountered a similar issue with something even simpler, console LEDs. Some of the LEDs that lit up the control console in our old Toyota Sienna blew out, so we asked a dealer how much it would be to fix. Turns out they'd have to take off the entire dashboard just to access the LEDs, several hours of labor and several hundred dollars. We could literally get a new set of tires for cheaper. As it was we commi…

My 2007 Sienna has the same problem, a blown LED. Luckily it lights a part of the dash I don't need often. I don't understand how LEDs can blow out, they're solid state and should last nearly forever.

Probably less the LEDs themselves and more the circuits powering them. Too much current can blow out an LED the same way it can blow out an incandescent. Solid state doesn't protect the diodes from heat damage.

Re: EU Parliament calls for longer lifetime for products

#193
post #51

I totally support this. I accidentally cracked the touch screen of my car radio console. The car is nothing special, a Ford Mondeo that is a few years old. Cost to replace touch screen module: more than the entire value of the car! That is insane. Effectively, if I want to claim from insurance - crack the touch screen (it is a replaceable module) and have to scrap the entire car. In this case, I managed to get a repl…

I did a quick search for your touch screen problem. It seems you might have been able to, instead of replacing the whole unit, replace the digitizer only, if possible. The whole assembly (including screen) appears to be $200-300 before labor. How much did you end up paying?

Re: EU Parliament calls for longer lifetime for products

#194
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just bought a washing machine. I spent a long, long time looking for the simplest one I could find, in the hopes that I could replace any mechanical part. From other HN threads it seems the control panels tend to go out a lot. Since I live in an apartment and wanted a small one anyway, I ended up with a portable one (oneConcept DB004 - odd name) that uses mechanical timers for the stages (you can hear them ticking!…

I wonder if energy regulations make it hard for mechanical products since they don't have the flexibility of electronic components.

That's certainly possible. Same goes for water - I note that Bosch dishwasher have some sort of system that analyzes the water to see if it's still clean enough to use before using more. Clever, and a savings for water, but one more complicated thing to break.

Of course, I fail to see why most modern consumer products can't just be driven with a Raspberry pi or arduino. Using off-the-shelf parts like that would do wonders for serviceability.

Re: EU Parliament calls for longer lifetime for products

#195
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am unconvinced that more expensive = better quality for a lot of things these days. There are some anecdotal examples of people with Miele washing machines that have lasted for decades etc (... as an aside I guess we wont know about today's Miele washing machines for several more years at least ...), but in my experience paying a premium for a product more often than not just gives you an as-cheaply-made product bu…

If you buy a Miele appliance anf get the extended guarantee which is ~10% of the purchase price, you get 7 years guarantee. As in, something breaks, tomorrow a repairman will be at your house and fix it, no extra cost. Quality is available, people just don't want to pay for it. Those washing machines that lasted for 15 years? Back then, they cost one or two months' wages. Try to get anyone to pay $2500 for a washing…

>Quality is available, people just don't want to pay for it. Those washing machines that lasted for 15 years? Back then, they cost one or two months' wages. Try to get anyone to pay $2500 for a washing machine today.

Back then people could afford to spend two months wages on a product like that. That people today don't reflects just as much (if not more) on their ability to do so as it does on their willingness.

Re: EU Parliament calls for longer lifetime for products

#196
From TFA: "if a repair takes longer than a month, the guarantee should be extended to match the repair time,"

Uh, no. That will insure that repairs always take 29 days, except in february where they will take 27 daze.

Simply always extend the guarantee by the amount of any repair time.

Re: EU Parliament calls for longer lifetime for products

#197
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would take central planning. The government in capitalist societies can't force someone to open a business when unemployment gets too high, and can't force businesses to close or merge when there are inefficiencies in the market. A capitalist economic system is inherently reactionary: someone notices a demand and creates supply for it. Someone tries their hardest to keep their business open even with low demand,…

>The government in capitalist societies can't force someone to open a business when unemployment gets too high It does all the time, no? At least here, town halls give stupid jobs to people when unemployment is too high. Obviously, the results are catastrofic.

There are notable exceptions (like the New Deal) but it's not a really widespread program. The government can certainly give people jobs, but they're either filling existing demand (like Manpower-type headhunters) or they're creating demand through government work (like road construction).

It's not like Soviet Russia where the government can open a new plant and put people to work there producing private-market goods and then shut it down when supply gets too big.

Re: EU Parliament calls for longer lifetime for products

#198
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which can increase the original cost of the good. ... to better reflect it's real cost by including all the otherwise externalized costs.

To cross subsidize some kind of use, raising the cost for people that won't have the product broken. I'm not saying that it's a net loss, nor that even if a net loss that it isn't worth it. But there is a cost there, and you are shoving it away on your quest to regulation instead of looking at it and deciding its worth.

No, you're assuming the regulation is an end in itself and coming to a tautological. Regulation is essentially saying 'wait, let's factor in these unaccounted-for-but-predictable costs (like repairability)' and you're saying 'but what about the costs of assessing the costs?!'.

Yeah, incorporating some product standards is going to raise the cost of all units sold, which represents a loss to the buyer who hoped to get the product at the cheapest possible price and was either willing to take perfect care of it or tolerate it not being fully repairable if it were broken. But that's OK, because when regulating something the most important person to consider is the median user, noth the clumsiest/unluckiest nor the most skilled/luckiest.

If the median user buys a car expecting to drive it for 5 years, and there's a >50% chance that it will suffer some damage to some major functional component during that time, it would be pretty inefficient for said damage to cost more to fix than the cost of replacing the whole car, unless cars were to become so cheap that it was actually cheaper and better to scrap them - perhaps thanks to some breakthrough in large-scale 3d printing technology or so.

That's what happened with computer keyboards; it used to be that they were fairly expensive and if someone spilled coffee into one it was worth dismantling, cleaning, and re-assembling, but then cheap membrane keyboards assembled with increasing levels of automation brought the price down faster and faster, and today you can get a PC keyboard for something ridiculous like $10. A few fetishists still pay out for old-style IBM Model M, but most people will just replace a damaged keyboard.

But while cars remain relatively expensive and hard to dispose of, it makes sense to minimize the economic losses stemming for a lack of modularity and repairability across the market as a whole, rather than seeking to minimize the costs for the stingiest buyer.

Re: EU Parliament calls for longer lifetime for products

#199
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this was a concern for you why didn't you buy a more expensive washing machine that has a longer warranty and a reputation for quality? These things exist but they cost more. Consumers need to be willing to put money where their mouth is.

450EUR is an expensive washing machine, they start at about 200. "Reputation" for quality won't ensure you anything and noone gives out warranty over mandatory minimum enforced by law.

Miele [0] give a 10 year guarantee on their washing machines.

[0] https://www.miele.co.uk/domestic/10-year-parts-and-labour-wa...

Re: EU Parliament calls for longer lifetime for products

#200
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the fundamental issue, yes. Some thoughts: A large part of the discrepancy is not automation, but cheap labour in the East where many of our products are made. Regulation can help redress than inequality. Repair is so expensive because it's made to be. It shouldn't take several hours of skilled labour to replace an easily broken component like a touchscreen - it should be snap-in. Regulation can address that…

You've made some thoughtful points, but I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion. In short, repairability is too nebulous of a target for effective regulation. I think the appropriate angle for government intervention is to protect a "right to repair". > A large part of the discrepancy is not automation, but cheap labour in the East where many of our products are made. Regulation can help redress than inequality...R…

reduce the regulatory and tax burden faced by small repair shops. Increased competition and lower overhead costs will drive down prices.

I think manufacturer hostility to third party repairers is a much bigger burden than state-imposed overhead. It's not like all manufacturers are super-open and eager to share the schematics of their products with hackers, is it?

Post reply on HN