Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups • Hacker News Board

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#191

Post by logfromblammo » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 4:46 PM UTC

throwaway2016a wrote: post #21

I work at a startup that isn't profitable yet so our salaries are very low... - Our typical junior makes $50 - 60k - A typical mid makes $65 - 75k - Seniors (including CTO) make $90 - 110k In greater Boston. It is VERY difficult to hire at those rates. We had someone come in interviewing for a senior that I would place as a mid (generously...) and he accepted another offer for $150k. At our scale he would be making $…

Don't forget the people who don't want to go where the Goobookzonsofts would want them to move.

If you're running a startup, and not trying to build a remote-friendly team, you really need to consider that.

Some location-bound businesses probably have some eminently poachable employees. For instance, look at the largest employer in the state of Indiana, Indiana University: http://www.indiana.edu/~uhrs/salary/pa-ranges-201617.html#it . A typical mid-level software pro would be classified by them as "3IT". Senior-level would be "3IT" or "4IT". A developer-manager would be "4IT". They probably have at most seven "5IT" employees, one for each campus. I think there is probably only one "6IT" in the entire university; that would be the CTO-level executive of the whole university system.

(I learned most of this a few years ago when driven by curiosity to figure out why anyone would even bother sending them a resume.)

IU pays their mid-level to senior-level tech pros only $53,892.80 to $70,033.60 . Why not target a few for recruitment? They'd likely jump ship immediately for a remote job at $70k. After all, if they are already working for so little, it must be because they don't want to move, right?

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#192

Post by kelukelugames » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 4:47 PM UTC

RamshackleJ wrote: post #68

znq wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very true. For both of our companies [1][2] we pay a fair salary plus a quarterly bonus on top of that based on what we can give (based on the company's quarterly profit results). We also offer remote retreats (so far Cape Town, Thailand, Martinique, Spain and Skiing in the Alps) and the biggest contributor to everyone's satisfaction is that we let everyone work from where ever they want and as much as they want as l…

I'm always curious about companies who talk about "caring about things other than just money". Maybe I'm missing somethings but if you are a for-profit company by definition you care about money, any claims other wise feel like marketing.

This is a pet peeves mine. It's one thing to be honest but another to brainwash people into thinking that taking less pay is some how good for the employees.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#193

Post by xapata » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 4:51 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #48

meddlepal wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered alternative comp mechanics? For example, I know it may sound unorthodox, but short work weeks is an awesome perk and worth a lot IMO. Other things like guaranteeing to ship engineers off to a conference per quarter of their choice and paying for a day and night of travel expenses + a day off so they can explore the destination is pretty cool too. How does your company handle IP assignment also for…

I would trade at least $15k/year for a four day work week.

> at least $15k/year

Being self-employed, I have to make that choice -- "How much value is a day off?" -- every time a customer asks me to take on a project. Converting a 4-day week to annual vacation: 1 day in 5 is about 50 days off the standard 250-day work-year. I'd pay a whole lot more than $15k for 10 weeks off.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#194

Post by calcsam » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 4:53 PM UTC

If startups want to compete effectively for talent with big companies, they need to communicate more effectively about the value of their equity (and in many cases, give more).

I built a site that helps startups do this: http://www.optionvalue.io/

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#195

Post by uberwach » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 4:53 PM UTC

TeeWEE wrote: post #163

Wow we are really getting underpaid here in Europe (Amsterdam). Max salaries for Seniors is really around 70k per year. Without an extra bonus.

Same here in Berlin, I got an offer with 75k p.a. as Sr. DS.

I mean one could cite the living costs, but then one also has to compare the different taxation / social welfare models. $350k+/year sounds huge, I would actually switch to Google for that amount (ofc. knowing what a senior/lead role encompasses).

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#196

Post by jdbernard » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 4:54 PM UTC

Sunstruck wrote: post #179

throwaway2016a wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't be so quick to judge. Placing someone at mid / senior / junior is not "cocky"... it's pretty subjective if you do it right. The guy missed questions that over 50% of our applicants knew the answers to. I'm not talking the "implement this obscure algorithm from scratch on a whiteboard" kind of question HN is so fond of. The hardest coding question we ask is Fizz-Buzz. But we can't / won't pay him more than we pa…

It sounds like you don't pay market salaries and are in denial

Sounds like he is well aware that they aren't paying market salaries:

> - We are probably priced out of the market

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#197

Post by douche » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 4:55 PM UTC

meddlepal wrote: post #136

throwaway2016a wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have flex hours. We've toyed with short work weeks but it hasn't taken off (yet). We do have the typical stocked fridge and beer and foosball. But so does everyone else. We've actually found that given the choice between a perk and more money, people almost always take the money up to about $100k. After that priorities change. > How does your company handle IP assignment also for personal projects? If I can work o…

Flex hours aren't really the same as cutting the work week by 8 hours. It also requires you do not just expect people to make up the lost day by putting in 10-12 hour days on the regular. It's a deeply cultural thing and requires top-down executive and mgmt buy in.

You wouldn't even have to cut the work week by 8 hours. Just cut it by one work day, with the same 40 hour week. Shit, it's not that rough working ten hours officially when you're already working ten unofficially, and that extra day off for a three-day weekend is worth its weight in gold.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#198

Post by spapas82 » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 4:55 PM UTC

csomar wrote: post #150

spapas82 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello, this is not only true for developing countries but even for developed countries. I'll speak about my country, Greece. The average wage for a junior developer is a little less than 20 000 euros per month (around 1000 years/month x 14 months + 4000 for insurance etc) while for a senior may be a little more (but probably less than 30 000, depends on years and kind of work). Wages of more than 35 000 euros are sel…

I'd be careful with that calculation. Is the 20k EUR / year figure includes Taxes, Social Security and Office Space. The figures being thrown here (in the US) are pre-Tax/Social Security.

For a junior dev yes, 20 k euros / year should include everything:

- 14000 euros / year payment

- 2000 euros / year insurance

- 2000 euros / year tax

For office space well the rents are around 200-300 euros / month for a small office - but he can also work from home.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#199

Post by plandis » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 4:55 PM UTC

jbergens wrote: post #108

likpok wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average engineer at google with 5 years of experience makes at least 250K. To put it bluntly: I'm pretty sure the average cash compensation (that is, disregarding RSUs entirely, which is likely at least another 100k/yr) is going to push 200K. The same is substantially true of the main competitors to Google (Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft).

Since the interviews at Google/Amazon/MS is famously hard they don't have the average developers (or shouldn't, then they have done a bad job with the recruitment). THEIR average is not the same as the average in the industry. I do think they are a bit closer to the average than they think but not very close to it.

I'd consider myself average at best and got job offers to two of those companies. I still work at one of them and have been promoted (so I can't be that terribly bad).

Honestly, reading cracking the coding interview and the algorithm design manual go a long way to summarizing relevant information you learn in college. Knowing how to write Python coupled with working through those books is probably enough to get hired like maybe 7/10 times. (I say 7 because a bad interviewer can sink your interview and there is nothing you can do about that).

My point being, is that the people that work at those companies are not dumb but that they are for normal people too. I wouldn't not apply just because you think everyone is somehow really smart.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#200

Post by Animats » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 4:58 PM UTC

Startups should be paying more than established companies. The odds of success are low, the hours are worse, the benefits are worse, and the odds that the job will disappear within two or three years are high. Seldom is the equity worth much unless you're in the first few employees.