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Elementary OS

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Re: Elementary OS

#191

Post by tigershark »

dkarapetyan wrote: post #175
Osmium wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really don't understand why developers use macs at all. I don't want to single out your comment, but there's been a lot of this lately (and every time this discussion comes up). There's no one true version of a 'developer' or a 'pro.' Broadly speaking, people will be most productive with the tool they know best. And the 'real' pros can be productive with just about anything. For myself, I consider myself a develo…

My preferred toolchain and stack just works better on a native linux box because it doesn't need virtualization overhead when I'm on a linux box. Those efficiencies add up pretty quickly. Since I mostly do backend dev work macs have never worked for me as they should. To address your point about this being a recent trend I actually noticed the mismatch when I first moved to the bay area 5 years ago. It seemed weird t…

Seriously??? In that case the real problem is pushing directly from a dev machine to prod. It is simply crazy not to use a staging server. I bet that even if the Dev machine has the same OS as prod a lot of shit happens when not using a proper staging server (been there seen that). So the production problems that you experienced are completely unrelated to the OS on the dev machine. They are simply caused by the wrong deployment process.

Re: Elementary OS

#192

Post by matt4077 »

endgame wrote: post #139

> It has polish and care that the stereotypical raging neckbeards who espouse the mantra of Linux on the desktop are unable to appreciate (or, apparently, build), and it has to exist, even if merely as a counterpoint to all the ugliness. Please be nice :(. Some of those so-called "neckbeards" probably helped build the stack upon which things like elementaryOS rest.

Having an interest in design, I often feel a vibe of aggression towards the whole endeavor coming from some elements of OSS scene that I can see being equally infuriating or hurtful as "neckbeards". Among them are:

- dismissal of design as a sort of thin veneer, somewhat fake, lipstick-on-good-bacon

- design as a kludge aimed at amateurs, to the point of preferring the worse UI (all else being equal) so as to prove something

- design = prettiness, and, by extensions, design being entirely a matter of taste and therefore impossible to criticize

- the complete rejection of any argument or evidence that cannot be derived from any of the laws of thermodynamics, Shannon, or at least an RFC

That being said, having browsed the elementary OS website, I'm not sure if isn't the victim of some of these errors itself. It sure seems to be a ripoff of macOS ca. 5 years ago applied as thin veneer to Linux. Their "brand" page may also be the first implementation of cargo-cult design.

Re: Elementary OS

#193

Post by chongli »

hug wrote: post #185
chongli wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. "Neckbeard" has connotations of sexism and other ugliness. "Graybeard" merely connotes old age and anachronism.

I would add experience, wisdom, and stubbornness to that list, personally.

Those traits tend to tag along with old age, at least as a stereotype.

Re: Elementary OS

#194

Post by hackerkid »

I am computer science student who have been using elementary as the primary os for almost three years now. It's beautiful and you would never think of switching to another linux desktop environment once you start using it. The only major problem you would be facing would be release upgrades. You have to do a fresh install for upgrading to a newer elementary version.

Re: Elementary OS

#195

Post by sn9 »

chongli wrote: post #193
hug wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would add experience, wisdom, and stubbornness to that list, personally.

Those traits tend to tag along with old age, at least as a stereotype.

At least in programming contexts, it also carries a connotation of competence.

Re: Elementary OS

#196

Post by ikurei »

insertnickname wrote: post #41
adamors wrote: post #6

Last time I tried Elementary OS it _looked_ very nice but basic stuff like adding an HTML signature in the email client was missing. Did they improve on this front?

Why would you want an HTML signature?

Some companies will require you to use a signature with an image and particular formatting. Also, tackiness is in the eye of the beholder.

Re: Elementary OS

#197

Post by spoiler »

simondedalus wrote: post #173
endgame wrote: post #139

> It has polish and care that the stereotypical raging neckbeards who espouse the mantra of Linux on the desktop are unable to appreciate (or, apparently, build), and it has to exist, even if merely as a counterpoint to all the ugliness. Please be nice :(. Some of those so-called "neckbeards" probably helped build the stack upon which things like elementaryOS rest.

not to mention that i've yet to have as bug-free an experience on elementary as i have on vanilla ubuntu, or opensuse with kde, or a really basic arch + i3 install, or kali with gnome 3, or (the list goes on). the unearned appreciation of elementary has always baffled me. i mean, the developers are not hacks or anything. i quite liked geary, and i'm fine with distros multiplying (why not? just use what you want, it d…

> the articles and comments i read about it look like they're coming from people who simply don't use linux that much (and aren't aware that all the good things they see in elementary are done better in other distros).

This was simply a "surface" observation of mine too, until I've first hand met people who were impressed with it, and haven't actually used used Linux, but merely used it occasionally.

Re: Elementary OS

#198

Post by redial »

_qc3o wrote: post #153

I really don't understand why developers use macs at all. They're not good dev machines. All production systems I work with are some flavor of linux (mostly ubuntu). There is actually a real impedance mismatch when I'm using my mac for work purposes. All those cores and RAM become meaningless when I have to do everything in a VM anyway. My personal dev machine is a project sputnik running ubuntu 16.04. I can understa…

You don't need to understand anything, you just need to accept that not all people are like you. Some prefer pepsi(ugh), some like red, some enjoy winter more. And some like using a Mac.

Why you are trying to group everybody together is beyond me. There are hundreds of programming languages, dozens of popular platforms, maybe hundreds of niche ones. There is no one single, correct solution, just as there is no one single answer to your question, because there is no one single deleveloper, there are millions, and some enjoy the stark look of a terminal and others prefer to look at pretty icons.

Re: Elementary OS

#199

Post by pavanky »

matt4077 wrote: post #192
endgame wrote: post #139

> It has polish and care that the stereotypical raging neckbeards who espouse the mantra of Linux on the desktop are unable to appreciate (or, apparently, build), and it has to exist, even if merely as a counterpoint to all the ugliness. Please be nice :(. Some of those so-called "neckbeards" probably helped build the stack upon which things like elementaryOS rest.

Having an interest in design, I often feel a vibe of aggression towards the whole endeavor coming from some elements of OSS scene that I can see being equally infuriating or hurtful as "neckbeards". Among them are: - dismissal of design as a sort of thin veneer, somewhat fake, lipstick-on-good-bacon - design as a kludge aimed at amateurs, to the point of preferring the worse UI (all else being equal) so as to prove s…

Firstly, I see a lot of people complaining about the design, but the matter of fact is a lot more programmers are willing to work for free and make their contributions open source than designers are. This was more true a decade ago than it is now, so there is a lot of "if it works, do not break it" attitude.

Secondly, "good design" is subjective as opposed to a program that achieves its goals. No matter what you do, you will have a substantial amount of people hate your designs. So when people come in and tell them that the design sucks, there are a lot of people also telling them that it is good and it works.

What needs to happen is people come up with objective shortfalls in existing designs and let them know how that can be fixed.

Re: Elementary OS

#200

Post by dkarapetyan »

tigershark wrote: post #191
dkarapetyan wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My preferred toolchain and stack just works better on a native linux box because it doesn't need virtualization overhead when I'm on a linux box. Those efficiencies add up pretty quickly. Since I mostly do backend dev work macs have never worked for me as they should. To address your point about this being a recent trend I actually noticed the mismatch when I first moved to the bay area 5 years ago. It seemed weird t…

Seriously??? In that case the real problem is pushing directly from a dev machine to prod. It is simply crazy not to use a staging server. I bet that even if the Dev machine has the same OS as prod a lot of shit happens when not using a proper staging server (been there seen that). So the production problems that you experienced are completely unrelated to the OS on the dev machine. They are simply caused by the wron…

We can go around circles for days. The fundamental issue still stands. You are losing time and spending effort working around OS mismatches because your dev machine and your production servers do not line up. Adding a staging server moves the problem one level higher. You will still spend however long it takes to fix whatever mismatch was caused by the differing environments.
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