What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google • Hacker News Board

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#191

Post by enraged_camel » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 2:36 PM UTC

mbrutsch wrote: post #170

enraged_camel wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>"culture of victimhood" You seem to have trouble between people who play the victim for attention (which is what that phrase refers to) and those who are actually victims. Just because some victims are capable of defending themselves doesn't change anything. Your mother was a victim too.

> Your mother was a victim too. Only in your mind, not in hers.

And also according to the dictionary, which defines the word "victim" as:

"One who is harmed by or made to suffer under a circumstance or condition: e.g. victims of war; victims of an epidemic; victims of poverty."

Unless you believe she enjoyed the attentions of men, that is. In which case you would be correct.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#192

Post by ruraljuror » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 2:37 PM UTC

ethbro wrote: post #139

ruraljuror wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would disagree with this advice. Unless you have a good reason not to trust your particular hr department for this situation, you should put in a good faith effort. Perhaps you could argue that most hr departments are incompetent, but I cannot imagine a scenario where retaliating against an employee for reporting sexual harassment would minimize a company's risk. Also I believe most employment discrimination employ…

> I cannot imagine a scenario where retaliating against an employee for reporting sexual harassment would minimize a company's risk. As the initial point of contact for a sexual harassment complaint, beginning to construct a paper trail that explains the superior's behavior and puts blame for the incident on the employee? I'm not saying this as pro- or anti-HR, just that as the document-keeper of record they have a l…

Good point. My point is that if HR were to retaliate against the employee, HR would open the company to a far greater amount of risk.

I think the point should be not to trust HR with the only copies of any documents or evidence. Again, I would argue that if HR does the steps you suggest, they are exposing themselves to much more risk than if they did pretty much anything else. Not to say they wouldn't do it, but that it would be a foolish thing to do.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#193

Post by y04nn » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 2:38 PM UTC

thedz wrote: post #162

1. There's a lot of typical victim blaming, downplaying, and "why didn't she just ask him to stop" comments on this submission, and it saddens me. Many of the reactions here are a large part why so many women feel uncomfortable and unwelcome in tech. 2. This is partially why HR exists. HR isn't just there to handle payroll. More people should do this, rather than let things fester or ignore things that should be repo…

Women should stand up and stop calling themselves victims.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#194

Post by nikcub » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 2:38 PM UTC

Joeboy wrote: post #175

nikcub wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did: > The EEOC has defined sexual harassment in its guidelines as: > Unwelcome sexual advances .. > Such conduct has the purpose or effect of unreasonably interfering with an individual's work performance or creating an intimidating, hostile, or offensive working environment It's right in the first two lines - what am I missing?

You're missing the word "when" between the second and third of those lines. The third line restricts the scope of the second.

Which is why I quoted the third point, as it covers both the OP and the Women In Tech survey

It would be an extremely narrow definition to attempt to carve out unwanted sexual advances, especially from a superior, in a workplace not being sexual harassment.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#195

Post by Joeboy » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 2:40 PM UTC

wavefunction wrote: post #71

zzleeper wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that often you might not be entirely sure about what's going on. In her case, the kiss in the cheek might just be cultural confusion (in Spanish-speaking countries we do that even with strangers). Of course, after the lap thing... I don't even have words... How can you treat other people like that.. you are put in a position of power/responsibility and they use it to degrade others..

Well this was in the US, where people do not kiss colleagues on the cheek. I know your intentions are fair in mentioning this cultural practice but that sort of justification also presents a fair amount of minimization of obvious harassment. I mean, do you kiss everyone on the cheek in Spanish-speaking countries or just very close friends?

I live in multicultural London, and have no idea how to conduct myself in public.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#196

Post by zupreme » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 2:41 PM UTC

Jean-Philipe wrote: post #186

zupreme wrote: post #153

I'm not so sure about this one. I think sexual harassment and direct flirtation can become confused depending on the perspective of the recipient. Men have been making advances toward women throughout history and, perhaps to a lesser extent, women do the same toward men. Far more workplace flings happen than any company (and even many employees) will admit and it often starts with one party or the other making their…

No, your view is not valid. Assuming you actually read the article, you probably didn't read this part: "In that week, I was kissed on the cheek, asked to sit on my manager’s lap, told about my manager’s sex life and virility, and told that “all men go through an Asian fetish at some time,” among other wildly discomfiting, work-inappropriate things. Then I was asked to dinner alone." That racist comment alone is reas…

Help me understand how it's not appropriate to directly tell someone who is making it obvious that they are attracted to you that you aren't interested. If you make it known that you aren't interested and the person continues. Then it becomes harassment.

So I refute your position. We all have to set boundaries in our relationships and the author of the article is no exception.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#197

Post by pc86 » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 2:42 PM UTC

isnullorempty wrote: post #182

pc86 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are leering at someone day in and day out that is harassment. Is that really a difficult point to understand? I'm not talking about a glance because a woman is wearing a new shirt. That's not harassment, nobody ever said it was, and asserting otherwise is a straw man. But ogling the hot girl every day is .

Only if it's someone you aren't interested in, if a hot guy you liked made eye contact a few times and smiled it would make your day. Am I right?

Well I'm a married heterosexual man, so the universe of "hot guys I like" is pretty small.

And I don't know why you insist on continuing to argue against points I'm not making. I'm saying continued unwanted advances = harassment, regardless of the existence or lack of "clear rejection." If you flirt with someone at work (what exactly are you being paid to do?) and they reciprocate, it's not unwanted. If you do it once and they don't reciprocate, and you stop, it's not continued.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#198

Post by gotchange » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 2:43 PM UTC

zzleeper wrote: post #41

jneal wrote: post #11

I'm not going to speak directly regarding the way this individual handled this situation, but in general, if you experience any form of sexual harassment I highly recommend you speak with HR immediately following the incident. Don't allow it to escalate, things can only get worse. Even if it's your first day on the job, you should never feel speaking to HR regarding an incident is a bad idea.

The problem is that often you might not be entirely sure about what's going on. In her case, the kiss in the cheek might just be cultural confusion (in Spanish-speaking countries we do that even with strangers). Of course, after the lap thing... I don't even have words... How can you treat other people like that.. you are put in a position of power/responsibility and they use it to degrade others..

You mean a real kiss on the cheek not a symbolic one where people place their cheeks side by side and just make funny sounds resembling a kiss?

Because here we're used to the symbolic ones for close friends and reserve those smooches for intimate or romantic relationships.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#199

Post by Joeboy » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 2:46 PM UTC

plasticxme wrote: post #121

y04nn wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like she is lacking self confidence, personality. Is she living in a fantasy world where everybody is kind? I was not here, so I don't want to juge, but she has only been asked to sit on ones lap, she could have strongly refuse and asked why she would do that in the first place. She should have shown strong signs of rejection, express the fact that is make her uncomfortable and asked him to stop. If he does no…

What!? First, it is highly inappropriate for anyone in any leadership or management position to ask anyone to sit on there lap, no matter what their relationship status. Secondly, making any kind of sexual proposition or advance in the office on someone you are not in a relationship with is sexual harassment. If you are in a relationship, it's inappropriate and a conflict of interest.

> making any kind of sexual proposition or advance in the office on someone you are not in a relationship with is sexual harassment.

Apparently around 20% of marriages begin with this kind of sexual harassment.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#200

Post by qb45 » Tue, Jan 19, 2016, 2:46 PM UTC

4k wrote: post #188

qb45 wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The really creepy part is not any particular of his unfortunate "advances", but the fact that he stubbornly continued them for few days despite the girl being completely turned off and freaked out by him. > "Please don't, this is inappropriate." would stop most such behavior from happening again in huge majority of cases. It depends. If there are witnesses, sure. But in private, the guy has a choice - treat this seri…

> but the fact that he stubbornly continued them for few days without noticing that the girl is completely turned off and freaked out by him. She says she laughed at the sexual comments made by her manager. > I remember thinking to myself, “Did I do something to encourage this kind of behaviour?” I had uncomfortably laughed at some of the sexual comments my manager had made because I didn’t know how else to react as…

Are you really unable to tell when someone is uncomfortably laughing (her words) at some silly remark because everybody around is laughing too versus actually enjoying the joke? Are you really unable to tell when someone doesn't like your company?