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The Case of Richard Glossip

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Re: The Case of Richard Glossip

#191

Post by happyscrappy »

acqq wrote: post #190
happyscrappy wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The death penalty is to the left what partial birth abortion is to the right. When groups are making emotional pleas to push their agenda then you know you are being played.

Can be being not worse than Equatorial Guinea, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Jordan, Somalia, Yemen, Sudan, Palestine, China, Singapore, Belarus, Taiwan, Afghanistan and Egypt and possibly North Korea considered as being left or right? And what about the universal human rights? "The right of every individual to protection from deprivation of life" and "no one shall be subjected to cruel or degrading punishment."

The only impediment to the repeal of the death penalty is the will of the American voters, so that is where you should direct your outrage.

Re: The Case of Richard Glossip

#192

Post by acqq »

happyscrappy wrote: post #191
acqq wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can be being not worse than Equatorial Guinea, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Jordan, Somalia, Yemen, Sudan, Palestine, China, Singapore, Belarus, Taiwan, Afghanistan and Egypt and possibly North Korea considered as being left or right? And what about the universal human rights? "The right of every individual to protection from deprivation of life" and "no one shall be subjected to cruel or degrading punishment."

The only impediment to the repeal of the death penalty is the will of the American voters, so that is where you should direct your outrage.

> that is where you should direct your hate

I beg your pardon?

> the will of the American voters

"A 2010 poll by Lake Research Partners found that a clear majority of voters (61%) would choose a punishment other than the death penalty for murder." (deathpenaltyinfo.org)

And between 1967 and 1977 not a single person was executed in the whole US, independently of the possible will of some states. The Eighth Amendment from 1791, the visible public disapproval and stuff.

And please tell where you've found any "emotional pleas"? Edit: or even "outrage"?

Re: The Case of Richard Glossip

#193

Post by tajen »

omginternets wrote: post #174
tajen wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* in USA. The average jail time in France is less than 2 years. French people are often surprised of the length of the penalties in countries which seem similarly western, such as Luxembourg.

Oh boy... I would not use France as a counter-example. Jail time is low in France because our jails are full. Any sentence below two years is automatically deferred to probation, which means that a large number of crimes are de facto not punished. A quick google search will reveal a disturbing trend of violent crimes that don't result in jail time for this reason. France has the opposite problem, and it's no better.

> our jails are full

I find it good. So magistrates are constrained by capacity. Of course I'd prefer they don't fill up French prisons at 125%.

If we build more prisons, we'll fill them up. US is now famously known for having more people in jail than Stalin's gulags [1]. I quite appreciate France's leniency with penalties, because I'm not sure 3 months or 3 years is really different, apart from further distorting the social network of the inmate.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_St...

Re: The Case of Richard Glossip

#194

Post by verbin217 »

omginternets wrote: post #188
verbin217 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The attention we're talking about here isn't narcissistic supply. It's basic interpersonal human concern. Shooting up a school because you're being systematically starved of your basic human needs isn't nearly as bad as you just made is sound. Otherwise I never contended with anything else you said. I do think they deserve a chance at rehabilitation but also that they're less likely to attain it.

I'm just pointing out that your argument isn't very effective. I actually agree with you, but someone taking the position that school shooters aren't rehabilitable isn't going to care whether or not they're minors. Their argument supersedes notions of maturity.

You're not refuting an argument I made. Read it again. I was simply trying to highlight the point at which we might actually have some meaningful effect on the problem. Hint: punishment is irrelevant.

Re: The Case of Richard Glossip

#195

Post by mariodiana »

justin_vanw wrote: post #143

So I just read whatever I could find on Richard Glossip and the case against him. On it's face it seems very likely that he is guilty. It appears that someone had been stealing money and cooking the books at the hotels Glossip managed, and about the time his boss became aware of the theft, the boss was murdered. He admits to knowing that the boss was murdered and Glossip admits attempting to cover up the murder, his…

"He admits to knowing that the boss was murdered and Glossip admits attempting to cover up the murder, his plan being to dissolve the body in acid. Glossip, as manager of the hotel the body was hidden in, reassigned cleaning staff specifically to prevent them from discovering the body."

A couple of weeks ago when Glossip was all the rage, the various sources arguing that he should be spared somehow neglected to mention any of this. They did mention though that the actual killer is the the one who fingered Glossip, which made me sympathize with the man's possible innocence. I must say, I'm far less sympathetic now.

Re: The Case of Richard Glossip

#196

Post by happyscrappy »

acqq wrote: post #192
happyscrappy wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only impediment to the repeal of the death penalty is the will of the American voters, so that is where you should direct your outrage.

> that is where you should direct your hate I beg your pardon? > the will of the American voters "A 2010 poll by Lake Research Partners found that a clear majority of voters (61%) would choose a punishment other than the death penalty for murder." (deathpenaltyinfo.org) And between 1967 and 1977 not a single person was executed in the whole US, independently of the possible will of some states. The Eighth Amendment f…

Fine edited to outrage. Your goal is to paint the US as similar to those countries but the fact is it is up to the states. Here are the states with no death penalty:

Alaska, Connecticut, Hawaii, Illinois, Iowa, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, New Jersey, New York, New Mexico, North Dakota, Rhode Island, Vermont, West Virginia, Wisconsin, District of Columbia

Re: The Case of Richard Glossip

#197

Post by mariodiana »

lisa_henderson wrote: post #69
johnnyg wrote: post #15

RE: How people are and the death penalty The other day I was driving down the road and thinking about how people are. It was 33 years coming but here's what hit me: people do what they want, even in the face of devastating consequences. See that long line outside any burger joint? See the stats on the amount of hard drugs guaranteed to destroy your world we consume? See that person cheating? See that DA wanting a win…

About this: "Though a jury is a good idea and the best we've got, the process they run through seems ripe for reform." How do you justify the statement that a jury is the best idea that we have? Germany has the concept of Schöffe, and some believe this offers results that stick closer to the law than the jury system: http://www.britannica.com/topic/Schoffe While any government of mortal human flesh must inevitably ha…

The main idea behind the jury system is to provide a further check upon the power of government. Unless there is a system which does a better job of that, then, from the point of view of liberal government, there is no point in reviewing it.

Re: The Case of Richard Glossip

#198

Post by toothbrush »

wtbob wrote: post #171
afandian wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't give someone their life back. Nearly any other punishment can be stopped.

You're right that you can't get someone his life back: you can't give back someone the empty years he spent in prison; you can't remove the pain and agony of years removed from polite society; you can't remove the cruelty and abuse he experienced from other prisoners. Punishment's unpleasant (that's its nature); death and imprisonment are unpleasant. And yet, there are crimes which deserve death. Not to execute vicio…

> Not to execute vicious murderers, rapists & traitors is a profound miscarriage of justice.

> Not to murder murderers, ... is a profound miscarriage of justice.

There, FTFY.

Re: The Case of Richard Glossip

#199

Post by DanBC »

wtbob wrote: post #171
afandian wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't give someone their life back. Nearly any other punishment can be stopped.

You're right that you can't get someone his life back: you can't give back someone the empty years he spent in prison; you can't remove the pain and agony of years removed from polite society; you can't remove the cruelty and abuse he experienced from other prisoners. Punishment's unpleasant (that's its nature); death and imprisonment are unpleasant. And yet, there are crimes which deserve death. Not to execute vicio…

> Not to execute vicious murderers, rapists & traitors is a profound miscarriage of justice.

That's a minority position. At least 100 countries don't use the death penalty at all. Another 50 countries have a death penalty but haven't executed anyone for at least 10 years. The 30 to 40 countries left are a list of oppressive regimes or countries with corrupt justice systems or justice systems that do not comply with human rights laws.

It's more likely that the US is in violation of human rights laws than all those other countries have profound miscarriages of justice.

Re: The Case of Richard Glossip

#200

Post by appleflaxen »

bruceb wrote: post #126

Not the same case but Kayla Gissendaner is set to be executed tomorrow. http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/27/us/georgia-sets-execution/inde... Unless the Georgia parole board changes its mind. She is guilty of having her husband killed. Guilt is not at doubt. The justice of her punishment is. Her children suffered from her crime but they are pleading to keep her alive. She is the only parent they have. Killing their only re…

> Her children suffered from her crime but they are pleading to keep her alive. She is the only parent they have. Killing their only remaining parent is victimizing them again.

That's on Kayla Gissendaner; nobody else.

I'm personally against the death penalty under any circumstances, but this particular case is no more or less egregious than any other.

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