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The Case of Richard Glossip

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Re: The Case of Richard Glossip

#181

Post by gus_massa »

johnnyg wrote: post #15

RE: How people are and the death penalty The other day I was driving down the road and thinking about how people are. It was 33 years coming but here's what hit me: people do what they want, even in the face of devastating consequences. See that long line outside any burger joint? See the stats on the amount of hard drugs guaranteed to destroy your world we consume? See that person cheating? See that DA wanting a win…

> An eye for an eye has its place. If you walk into a school, start shooting and are captured alive - I think you just forfeited any claim on life or potential rehabilitation.

I think that you here implicitly assume that there is overwhelming evidence of who is the author of the crime. For example, all of these: Many survivors testimonies (be careful, they are not so reliable in practice), many videos of the massacre were the face of the attacked is clearly visible, a perfect matching of the ADN in few blood spots, fingerprint in the weapons, gunpowder marks in the hands, he/she is detained in situ while trying to kill more people, ...

Does this case has overwhelming evidence?

Re: The Case of Richard Glossip

#182

Post by Lawtonfogle »

pjc50 wrote: post #157
justin_vanw wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh my, that is quite scary, but I'm sure you have no examples.

He was talking about Guantanamo, presumably ("extralegal holding facility")

Also involuntary commitment facilities. While there is some truly deranged people out there, psychology has a long history of being abused to remove individuals by giving them false labels of mental disorders (or otherwise vastly overstating any disorders the person does have).

Re: The Case of Richard Glossip

#183

Post by mistermann »

VLM wrote: post #178
tsotha wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would cause change, but in the opposite direction. People would rally around judges and prosecutors and you'd see fewer people questioning the status quo. It would be a disaster.

Both proposals have been purely theoretical. I can provide three practical historical examples of turning it up to 11: 1) abortion clinic bombing changed nothing; if anything it helped raise funds (you'd almost think they were false flag operations? Is there anything that helped the pro choice cause more than the bombings?) 2) the War on drugs has ruined uncountable lives, certainly far more than drugs have ruined, n…

Those aren't bad analogies, but I wouldn't consider them good.

1) The public and perhaps even many scholars are split on abortion - I personally don't think there's a clear cut "correct" answer.

2) I wouldn't expect people to quit. Drugs are fun, most are relatively harmless, using them is not immoral, and you most likely won't get caught.

3) Similar to #2, and much of the issues here are a direct result of #2

Turning it up to 11 (great expression btw) to be effective should be used only when there is obvious wrongdoing, when innocent people are clearly being railroaded by people who either know the person is innocent, or made no effort to determine innocence (which, let's not forget, is the job they are being paid very handsomely to perform). I'm not sure if this particular case is a valid example example for turning it up to 11, but there are certainly plenty. I think this would be effective, and I believe there would be widespread public support with sufficient communication.

Re: The Case of Richard Glossip

#184

Post by Lawtonfogle »

justin_vanw wrote: post #148
afandian wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In all of the mistrials and cases where innocent people have been killed, someone has thought the party was guilty. The thing that makes the death penalty barbaric is that people have misplaced confidence in their opinions.

There are two issues here that most commentary about this case seems to be happy to conflate: - Is he guilty - Should he be executed These are independent questions. One is a question of fact, and there seems to be almost no credible reason to doubt his guilt. The other is a question of ethics and policy. As for your argument on why the death penalty is barbaric, it is not a valid argument. Reductio ad absurdum, your…

Because the first issue can never be 100%, the second is never a 'should'. Even cases where the convicted admitted guilt have later ended with the convicted being found innocent.

Re: The Case of Richard Glossip

#185

Post by Lawtonfogle »

mikeyouse wrote: post #146
pdabbadabba wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I encourage everybody to read up on the horrors of how the death penalty functions in practice. Especially in combination with the plea-bargain system, that effectively robs > 95% of suspects from their constitutional right to a fair trial. What do you mean by "in combination with," here? If you mean that the death penalty is used to convince people to plead guilty, I'm with you. But if you're saying that a large n…

I read his post as the death penalty can be a bludgeon that prosecuting attorneys will wield to get many more plea bargains from people accused of serious crimes. Pleading out to lesser offenses still with decades in prison is a much different calculation for the accused if the alternative is a trial with a death penalty vs. a trial with another decade or two on the end.

Plea bargains are a very core corruption of our justice system and should be outright banned in every shape and form. Everyone who has ever accepted a plea should have all punishments immediately ended (and any penalties accrued while in prison just for a plea), but prosecutors would be allowed to bring trials up against anyone freed to sentence them to their time served (the overload in cases would force them to prioritize on only the worse offenders who probably did do it while those who were forced to take a plea on dubious grounds would be ignored and left to live their lives). And this would include compensation for all those who have been imprisoned over a plea deal.

In short, every plea deal should be considered a grave injustice that needs to be corrected.

Of course, it will never happen.

Re: The Case of Richard Glossip

#186

Post by thret »

Even if everybody on death row were guilty beyond all doubt, I don't think it is right to sentence an innocent person to kill another human for any reason.

I wouldn't want it on my conscience, so how can I demand if of someone else? No innocent person deserves that responsibility.

Re: The Case of Richard Glossip

#187

Post by oskarth »

gus_massa wrote: post #181
johnnyg wrote: post #15

RE: How people are and the death penalty The other day I was driving down the road and thinking about how people are. It was 33 years coming but here's what hit me: people do what they want, even in the face of devastating consequences. See that long line outside any burger joint? See the stats on the amount of hard drugs guaranteed to destroy your world we consume? See that person cheating? See that DA wanting a win…

> An eye for an eye has its place. If you walk into a school, start shooting and are captured alive - I think you just forfeited any claim on life or potential rehabilitation. I think that you here implicitly assume that there is overwhelming evidence of who is the author of the crime. For example, all of these: Many survivors testimonies (be careful, they are not so reliable in practice), many videos of the massacre…

> Regarding Richard Glossip. I don't know him or his case.

Please read the rest of the post before commenting. It's possible to believe all of these things at once:

(i) An eye for an eye is useful and works.

(ii) Glossip should not be in jail, and even less so, killed.

(ii) pg is correct in his reasoning for why US should not have the death penalty.

Re: The Case of Richard Glossip

#188

Post by omginternets »

verbin217 wrote: post #175
omginternets wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Unfortunately most of the people who do this are children. eric_the_read's comment notwithstanding, people subjected to extreme circumstances in their childhood years are less likely to be rehabilitated, not more. The argument is that someone willing to shoot up a school for attention is beyond rehabilitation. His age is irrelevant to someone making that claim, and possibly argues in his favor.

The attention we're talking about here isn't narcissistic supply. It's basic interpersonal human concern. Shooting up a school because you're being systematically starved of your basic human needs isn't nearly as bad as you just made is sound. Otherwise I never contended with anything else you said. I do think they deserve a chance at rehabilitation but also that they're less likely to attain it.

I'm just pointing out that your argument isn't very effective. I actually agree with you, but someone taking the position that school shooters aren't rehabilitable isn't going to care whether or not they're minors. Their argument supersedes notions of maturity.

Re: The Case of Richard Glossip

#189

Post by happyscrappy »

acqq wrote: post #179

The death penalty: Of the 49 European countries, only 1 (Belarus) still has the death penalty and executes people. Last time a civilian executed in Mexico: 1937, Canada: 1962, UK: 1977, Russia: 1999 In 2014, only these countries executed more people per million than the US: Equatorial Guinea, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Jordan, Somalia, Yemen, Sudan, Palestine, China, Singapore, Belarus, Taiwan, Afghanistan and Egypt A…

The death penalty is to the left what partial birth abortion is to the right. When groups are making emotional pleas to push their agenda then you know you are being played.

Re: The Case of Richard Glossip

#190

Post by acqq »

happyscrappy wrote: post #189
acqq wrote: post #179

The death penalty: Of the 49 European countries, only 1 (Belarus) still has the death penalty and executes people. Last time a civilian executed in Mexico: 1937, Canada: 1962, UK: 1977, Russia: 1999 In 2014, only these countries executed more people per million than the US: Equatorial Guinea, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Jordan, Somalia, Yemen, Sudan, Palestine, China, Singapore, Belarus, Taiwan, Afghanistan and Egypt A…

The death penalty is to the left what partial birth abortion is to the right. When groups are making emotional pleas to push their agenda then you know you are being played.

Can be being not worse than Equatorial Guinea, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Jordan, Somalia, Yemen, Sudan, Palestine, China, Singapore, Belarus, Taiwan, Afghanistan and Egypt and possibly North Korea considered as being left or right?

And what about the universal human rights? "The right of every individual to protection from deprivation of life" and "no one shall be subjected to cruel or degrading punishment."

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