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On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

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Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#181

As hammerzeit mentioned, a lot of bullshit jobs are there because of an arms race. Your competitors have marketers, lobbyists and corporate lawyers, so you need them too. If everybody fired 90% of their marketers, marketing dollars would go 10x as far, and things wouldn't change much. Just take a look at marketing. It's an industry that's so big it props up newspapers, television, Google and most of the rest the web…

> but there are plenty of bad side effects like the invasion of privacy, cluttering up urban spaces, breaking up TV shows, et cetera. I will add another set that is often missed in discussion - electricity, fuel and man-hours. We are heading for a crisis in supply of the former two in part because of wasting a big part of them on those bullshit zero-sum jobs.

There's plenty of fuel around. We will have some upset as we switch sources, but believe it that business will switch to whatever keeps them going at a good price, when push comes to shove.

I'm not sure that people going to jobs is very big deal energy-wise. Isn't smelting steel our largest electricity consumption? Industry uses buttloads of energy; dwarfs what you and I use to heat our houses and run our cars by orders of magnitude.

Oh here it is: http://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/annual/pdf/sec2.pdf

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#182
post #89

Interesting article but Graeber seems to mix up some different issues: a) We're not working 15 hour weeks. I'd say that's mostly because people like to do things. Give people enough money to not need to work and they'll still want to go build stuff b) His musician mate made loads as a lawyer, not much as a musician in spite of contributing more to society as a musician. That does seem to be a market failing. Gandhi t…

Comment C) is right on! The amount of coordination and planning it would take to secretly pull it off greatly surpasses even the most talented and motivated groups.

It's interesting you use Gandhi as an example, there is some substantial evidence he had access to a great deal of the world's bounty due to his positive impact. This would seem like a market efficiency.

It seems this artist had significant exposure to the potential customer, along with a recording contract which would suggest promotional funding. With my cold-hearted economist hat on it's tempting to assign this less to a market inefficiency than not contributing much to society.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That answer is complete bullshit. > In the United States, socialism is virtually nonexistent. Except for Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and Unemployment. And don't forget the military.

By that definition the whole of Western Europe would be a socialist state. Government services like these do not equal socialism. I live in The Netherlands, a pretty liberal kingdom with excellent social security and unemployment benefits. But don't be mistaken, it's not a socialist country. Not by a long shot. The biggest political parties are liberal-conservative and social-democrats. The latter lean towards the le…

"Government services like these do not equal socialism."

So why is it socialism for the government to use tax money hire doctors and nurses to help people (e.g. UK NHS which was very clearly seen by its founders as a socialist endeavour) and not socialist for the government to hire soldiers to defend the country from attack?

NB I'm from the UK where it's clear that the public sector here has some of the very best people working for it (in the front lines of the NHS and the military) as well as some of the worst (particularly senior leadership in both organisations).

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't take it out on socialism! Under those principles, the banks either would not have existed in this form in the first place, or been allowed to go bankrupt just as you suggest. What happened with the bank bailout was pure capitalism, the banks simply bought the government!

In fact, large corporate entities are nearly as wasteful and inefficient as the socialist bureaucratic state-controlled monsters from the USSR. Looks like key here is in being monstrous, not in the underlying ideology.

While I sometimes describe myself as "libertarian", this is actually closer to one of my core positions.

Large organizations become large because somehow, at some point in their past, they discovered how to produce some sort of wealth greatly in excess of what they were spending to produce it. This creates security for the entity. This security means that they are no longer getting feedback from the real world about what is working and not working; long before the feedback reaches the people in the organization it needs to reach, it has been absorbed by the buffers of high wealth and a lot of people. Consequently the entity begins acting without feedback from the real world. As control systems theory would teach us, the system begins slowly-but-inevitably spinning out of control until it finally exceeds its buffers and comes down in one or another form of catastrophe.

I've phrased this in "wealth" and "feedback" because it has jack-shit to do with "capitalism" or "socialism" or anything else. It's a general problem with things that get too big. (It does so happen to be a special case of this problem that many, many people want to pile everything into one big entity and call it the "government", but the problem is very widespread beyond just that one case.) Everything needs feedback to stay connected to the real world, and any time that an entity gets too large to respond to feedback, trouble is assured. The bigger the entity, the bigger the trouble. Big governments, big corporations, big anything is dangerous. And it's not because of some mystical badness due to largeness, it's very specifically their ability to operate without or even despite feedback from the real world. It isn't magical thinking to think that's trouble... it's magical thinking to think that entity could ever operate without feedback. Despite how this may appear to be ideology, I consider this engineering, and rather simple engineering at that.

Smaller organizations can still do very bad things. My parents happen to live in a township (a local government entity that stands in for a town/city in the rural area they live) that did something very financially stupid and now they've got some disturbingly substantial extra taxes to pay for a few years to pay it off. Smallness didn't prevent the township government from doing something stupid. However, the people who did that stupid thing were immediately outsted and will never serve again... that's feedback. When's the last time you heard that last bit from a big company or government? (Who in the Federal government has ever paid for any of the bad things that you can name in the past 14 years? It's not an empty list, but it's a short one for such a massive entity and long time.) And there's a township full of people now keeping a closer eye on what financial commitments it makes.

So, with that foundation, I'd submit a lot of these bullshit jobs are themselves an expression of the fantastic, astonishing wealth we've generated as a society. We have them because we can afford to have them. And don't forget the fact that the people with bullshit jobs are applying their full human intelligence to the task of looking busy, whether they are doing it on purpose or otherwise. When an entity is large and flush with cash, it lacks the motivation to push through the fog of deception and start ensuring that people are actually generating value.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't take it out on socialism! Under those principles, the banks either would not have existed in this form in the first place, or been allowed to go bankrupt just as you suggest. What happened with the bank bailout was pure capitalism, the banks simply bought the government!

s/capitalism/corporatism Many capitalists (myself included) tend to not support corporatism. Capitalism assumes individuals owning smallish businesses. The minute a business becomes large enough to influence the federal government, things get weird and I'm not sure the system works as intended.

That's not actually what corporatism means. The word you're looking for is corporatocracy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#186
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you agree with this statement?: > The ruling class has figured out that a happy and productive population with free time on their hands is a mortal danger (think of what started to happen when this even began to be approximated in the ‘60s). I was with him until there... I'd like to believe things like that and blame it all on the "evil politicians," but I'm really not sure the "ruling class" is that organized. Th…

I believe he is implying that the goal, "keep the general population employed/occupied to prevent unrest" is consciously held by some 'oligarchs'. However, the systems which accomplish that goal have emerged via trial and error and were not consciously designed by the 'oligarchs'. The 'oligarchs' watch the broad trends and have supported changes to the system that supported their goal and have hindered changes to the…

Of course, one oligarch's stability is another working man's stagnation...

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can the voters exert punishment when who's even running for office is determined by the amount of money available for campaigning? Even disregarding direct corporate sponsorship, the rich who mostly contribute are still affiliated with the industry & finance sector. Average Joe can vote for puppet A or puppet B. People like Ron Paul, with firm principles, and the means to finance themselves despite sizable opposi…

> How can the voters exert punishment when who's even running for office is determined by the amount of money available for campaigning? There are a few issues I have with this statement, hence I decided to slice your post. I hope it is ok. Here is what I can't agree on: 1. From the very sentence above my understanding is that you notice something very important here: is it that in your opinion democracy doesn't work…

I don't distrust the American voter in particular, don't worry. Maybe you could say the problem is simply entrenchment.

Voters don't go and seek out candidates with the most money, it's the other way around. Somebody with small funds simply can't reach as many voters as somebody with a huge war chest.

A capitalism where money is the outmost metric doesn't work, just like communism with absolute centralization and discounting all ownership doesn't work. Sidestepping the need for social responsibility, a very important factor, that people tend to ignore, about free market theory is that it's based on the premise that all information is available to you when you make an economic transaction. In that case, the market can be self-regulating. But in reality, this is by a large stretch not the case. Especially in politics.

So there you have a democratic system where money is power to to spew your viewpoint to as many people as possible. The voter doesn't have to be particularly ignorant for this to work, as this subverts the usual social channels. You always have incomplete information about the world, even without the help of politics. Money is an undeniable influence factor. A free market can only work if both sides to a transaction disclose all relevant information, be it money or politics.

My problem with "The System" is that the influence of money (and other hidden factors) is hushed under the table, and thus, in the vein of the previously mentioned free market principles, self-regulation ceases to work, and you have entrenchment.

So that is the dichotomy perpetrated by "pure" capitalism with regards to democracy. If you want money to win, there you have it. Those in power rescued the banks, themselves, effectively, to keep their money and their power, at the cost of the people at the lower rungs being disenfranchised. This has nothing to do with socialist principles.

Coming back to the beginning, the two-party system is already biased towards entrenchment, effectively barring small upstarts from entering politics. The mechanics of how this comes about are subtle and evolutionary enough that nobody notices it until its too late. The system is already too broken (maybe only almost...) to allow reform from within, eg. by the regular mechanism of voting and elections. There is also a huge amount of technical debt from the before the information age, that needs to be shed, as well as legal debt from at least two centuries of evolutionary lawmaking.

TL;DR: reform is needed, but the system is too encubered to let it happen.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#188
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is preferable to Basic Income: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Works_Administration / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Job_guarantee For the following reasons: * It it proven and was highly successful during the previous depression. * We actually do have a lot of infrastructure which needs rebuilding and projects which would make all of our lives better (high speed rail, mission to mars, etc.) * People actuall…

> People actually like to work - to feel useful. There is this common misconception that basic income will make everyone stay home and do nothing useful. I think it's completely wrong, people (most of them) will continue to work; the huge difference is that they will not do it for the money, but for the actual effect it has. Your example shows it. You can also ask yourselves if chefs, musicians, programmers, mechanic…

>There is this common misconception that basic income will make everyone stay home and do nothing useful.

Rather than answering supposedly common misconceptions that nobody on this thread actually had - answer me this instead:

What is so wrong with giving the unemployed a JOB rather than just money? They need money, but they also want to work. During the last depression the PWA built tons of useful stuff, much of which we still use today. Why would Basic Income be better than doing that again?

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#189
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not going to deny anything you said, its almost 100% true. But I believe your missing an important "fact"(maybe). That is its not really physically/physiologically/mentally possible to put in 40 hours of true "work". Not consistently anyways. So as much as it is we not truly putting in 40 hours, its the entire effort to be available for 40 hours IMO that you are getting paid for.

I've worked agricultural jobs. We worked 8 hours a day, with a 15 minute "smoko" break after 2 hours, 1/2 hour lunch break after 4 hours, and another 15 minute break after 6. (This is in Australia, and was these were the award conditions) Except when we were on breaks we were continually working.

Fair enough, but can you do that until you're 80? And what happens when you have a serious knee problem or a pregnancy?

I suspect it's exceptional that someone can do physical labor for 40 hours a week for 45 weeks a year for 60 years.

The common response is, "Well, yeah, but you should retire at some point." And that's a fair response, but farm workers are severely under-charging if they expect to work for 30 years (to make up a number) and then be retired for 25+ years.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#190
post #113
post #63

Workers in the beginning of the 20th century worked 70 hour 6-7 days weeks, now in many countries we are down to 35h / 5 days. In the next 10 years we will get to 30 or less, we are at a threshold of the 4 day work week that's why its taking longer to cut down on the work hours. The 4 day work week will imply social changes, and therefore the resistance but it will come in the next 20 years. The author understands th…

You need a lawyer because the laws are so complicated. The laws were made complicated by lawyers. I would much rather have a few simple laws, worded in plain English much like the first ten amendments, so that I could represent myself in legal matters.

This may be roughly equivalent to saying, “I would rather have a programming language that describes what I want in plain english, so I can program myself without hiring a programmer to do it for me.“

Even the first ten amendments, "simple" as they are, have mountains of debate and legalese surrounding them.

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