On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs • Hacker News Board

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#131

Post by dognotdog » Wed, Nov 05, 2014, 2:10 PM UTC

byEngineer wrote: post #123

dognotdog wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't take it out on socialism! Under those principles, the banks either would not have existed in this form in the first place, or been allowed to go bankrupt just as you suggest. What happened with the bank bailout was pure capitalism, the banks simply bought the government!

Tea Party members voted against bank bailouts. Not democrats, not old-republicans. My point is, yes, you can buy democrats and some republicans to vote in favor of more government spending. But you apparently can't buy them all to do it. During cold war you could try to buy Moscow communists as much as you wanted so they allowed you open bank branch in USSR, but this would never happen. You can try buy guys like Ron…

How can the voters exert punishment when who's even running for office is determined by the amount of money available for campaigning? Even disregarding direct corporate sponsorship, the rich who mostly contribute are still affiliated with the industry & finance sector. Average Joe can vote for puppet A or puppet B. People like Ron Paul, with firm principles, and the means to finance themselves despite sizable opposition, are the rare exception.

Add to that the fact that no ordinary citizen directly voted for the bailouts, how can you blame this on the voter? The problem is not the voter, but the system.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#132

Post by dropit_sphere » Wed, Nov 05, 2014, 2:11 PM UTC

rwmj wrote: post #120

So why doesn't competition push out the "bullshit" jobs? This article mentions that competition is supposed to fix it, isn't fixing it, but doesn't explain why.

Answer: the jobs are caused by the competition. Competition is what makes them necessary. If a company doesn't spend on marketing, other companies will outmarket it. If a company doesn't have a legal department it will crumble under a barrage of high-digit lawsuit damages. If a country doesn't spend on defense, it will be annexed by one that does (that some countries manage to escape this is an illusion stemming from the fact that the U.S. or similar large bloc effectively owns them already and is spending on defense in their behalf).

There is one job of value to society that teachers, etc., are failing (or succeeding; take your pick) to do: managing their own sustainability. The unlisted list item on all job descriptions is "protect this job from backstabbing, layoffs, budget cuts, or impoverishing or killing the person who takes it." Snarky aside on engineers: we are usually bad at this, because, just like I said, it's not in the requirements.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#133

Post by netcan » Wed, Nov 05, 2014, 2:11 PM UTC

sunnybg wrote: post #125

netcan wrote: post #12

I think he's talking about jobs where this is arguable (though never entirely provable) from any perspective: employee, employer or consumer. What is the point of FMCG marketing people? Do they really serve a purpose in society or do they just funnel funds from the competitive process (which as a whole might be productive) into different hands, including their own. There are some positive externalities like televisio…

Leisure doesn't have to be indulgent. It simply gives a lot more possibilities. If you could work on any project or interest or hobby you wanted to right now, what would you work on? If you could learn any new thing you wanted, what would you learn about? Any family, friends, neighbors, or others going through a hard time right now, how would you like to help them? This is the sort of stuff we should be teaching kids…

I think we might be talking about different things. My understanding of this articles is:

(A) A lot of work is bullshit from either a 'gives your life meaning' or a 'is useful to the world' perspective. (B) Everyone working full time is such a foundational part of our society that we don't know how to change it without breaking the world. Work is our identity, our drive to get good grades in preschool, the way money is distributed in society, a politically stabilizing force, etc.

You're talking about what we could do if we lived in that world.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#134

Post by shkkmo » Wed, Nov 05, 2014, 2:13 PM UTC

jug6ernaut wrote: post #97

ams6110 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is possible and commonplace in jobs where you physically work. Construction, any of the trades, factory work, food service... if you work 40 hours you have actually worked very close to 40 hours. There isn't any real opportunity to slack off or stand around in those jobs. Office jobs, yeah. Many of those are bullshit jobs.

I am mainly speaking to jobs that require a lot of critical thought. Your brain like the rest of your body can get fatigued, but unlike most of the other muscles in your body it is not easy to increase its conditioning. IE mental exhaustion, there is a limit to how much intensive mental work everyone can put in in a given period of time. This is mainly to what i am speaking of. And yes of course there are BS jobs, I…

Many of the physical jobs also require a lot of critical thought. There is a reason why accident rates go up significanly the more hours people are forced to work.

The difference is not that office jobs require more critical thought, but that physical jobs tend to produce actual value, and tend to produce value that is more easily measured.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#135

Post by vinceguidry » Wed, Nov 05, 2014, 2:14 PM UTC

rglover wrote: post #127

The answer clearly isn’t economic: it’s moral and political. The ruling class has figured out that a happy and productive population with free time on their hands is a mortal danger (think of what started to happen when this even began to be approximated in the ‘60s). And, on the other hand, the feeling that work is a moral value in itself, and that anyone not willing to submit themselves to some kind of intense work…

The answer is individual. Build skills in your spare time that will let you switch jobs, industries, and fields until you are in an environment where you can grow.

Then, once you're there, have side projects. Do personal stuff on work time. Spend less time working and more time thinking. Use your expertise to extract the time you need. Remix and refactor the insights you get from the stuff that you do. Network and build up a support group that will help you when it's time to spread your wings.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#136

Post by crdoconnor » Wed, Nov 05, 2014, 2:15 PM UTC

edw519 wrote: post #66

Let's not forget about how much bullshit government adds to non-bullshit jobs... My Typical 8 hour day 1979 to 2002 (before Sarbanes-Oxley): 7 hours: code 1 hour: overhead 2002 to 2014 (after Sarbanes-Oxley): 1 hour: insure rigorous Requirements documentation 1 hour: insure rigorous Test Plans (whether used or not) 1 hour: peer review (of devs I would have never hired) 1 hour: code review (for what peer review missed…

Sarbanes Oxley was created to prevent executives from looting their own companies (a la Enron) and then feigning ignorance and blaming their underlings when everything blew up.

The reason why it seems to be ridiculously onerous is because it gives the government the power to slam execs in jail if they do not have sufficient control over the company.

It's executive bullshit that ruined your day, which is caused by executive paranoia about going to jail which was caused by executives who stole from their own companies.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#137

Post by lsaferite » Wed, Nov 05, 2014, 2:16 PM UTC

byEngineer wrote: post #87

jug6ernaut wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not going to deny anything you said, its almost 100% true. But I believe your missing an important "fact"(maybe). That is its not really physically/physiologically/mentally possible to put in 40 hours of true "work". Not consistently anyways. So as much as it is we not truly putting in 40 hours, its the entire effort to be available for 40 hours IMO that you are getting paid for.

I agree. Maybe the solution would be to be paid per task completed. I.e. create a bug tracking system (just like JIRA) where employees (working from home) would bid for how much they could do the task in what timeframe. Something like desk but only company's employees could take part in bidding.

That seems like a horribly stressful way to work.

It also reminds me of 'the Feds' from Snow Crash for some reason.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#138

Post by JoeAltmaier » Wed, Nov 05, 2014, 2:17 PM UTC

shkkmo wrote: post #134

jug6ernaut wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am mainly speaking to jobs that require a lot of critical thought. Your brain like the rest of your body can get fatigued, but unlike most of the other muscles in your body it is not easy to increase its conditioning. IE mental exhaustion, there is a limit to how much intensive mental work everyone can put in in a given period of time. This is mainly to what i am speaking of. And yes of course there are BS jobs, I…

Many of the physical jobs also require a lot of critical thought. There is a reason why accident rates go up significanly the more hours people are forced to work. The difference is not that office jobs require more critical thought, but that physical jobs tend to produce actual value, and tend to produce value that is more easily measured.

It is ultimately very satisfying to see your complete roof, new shingles neatly laid across 5000 square feet. Or your plowed field ready for the planter, 80 acres of potential fertility. Even a half-acre neatly mowed. I don't know if it beats a library debugged and turning over 50,000 calls per second, but at least you can look at the other ones, see the whole expanse of what you accomplished laid out under the sun.

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#139

Post by shkkmo » Wed, Nov 05, 2014, 2:17 PM UTC

byEngineer wrote: post #123

dognotdog wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't take it out on socialism! Under those principles, the banks either would not have existed in this form in the first place, or been allowed to go bankrupt just as you suggest. What happened with the bank bailout was pure capitalism, the banks simply bought the government!

Tea Party members voted against bank bailouts. Not democrats, not old-republicans. My point is, yes, you can buy democrats and some republicans to vote in favor of more government spending. But you apparently can't buy them all to do it. During cold war you could try to buy Moscow communists as much as you wanted so they allowed you open bank branch in USSR, but this would never happen. You can try buy guys like Ron…

I was always sad the the Tea Party and the Occupy movement never managed to figure out that they were on the same side...

Re: On the phenomenon of bullshit jobs

#140

Post by mrottenkolber » Wed, Nov 05, 2014, 2:18 PM UTC

I achieved the 15 hour week. I like to do 20 hours some weeks (I get paid the hour, so its attractive, but I really don't have to). Note that I am not rich. Also I am young and healthy and don't have kids.