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The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

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Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#181
post #5

The hypocrisy of okcupid was evident even before this little bit of info (Yagan's past political contribution) was shared. As I and others pointed out, okcupid went on using javascript! As for okcupid occupying the moral high ground, I still remember when, right after their purchase by match.com, they removed one of the most interesting posts on their blog. It was about why you should never pay for dating web sites a…

He is not the CEO of Javascript.

He has no brand or direct authority over javascript engines.

It's perfectly fine to boycott Firefox and not boycott Javascript.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So many on the left (including myself) revere the style of politics of Nelson Mandela and yet when it comes time to actually behave like Mandela would in a given situation they completely fail, and conduct the same style of embittered, vengeful politics when they are asked to treat the other side with an attitude of forgiveness and reconciliation. Do you think Mandela systematically purged all those whites who once s…

For forgiveness you need Truth and Reconciliation. There's a reason that committee was set up. "Forgiving and being reconciled to our enemies or our loved ones are not about pretending that things are other than they are. It is not about patting one another on the back and turning a blind eye to the wrong. True reconciliation exposes the awfulness, the abuse, the hurt, the truth. It could even sometimes make things w…

I'm not sure Eich fully understands the hurt and abuse he committed, which makes owning up to it somewhat difficult. My understanding of truth and reconciliation was that the process was intended to educate those responsible for apartheid just how truly awful it was, not just demand an apology. Thousands of people demanding for resignation over the Internet seems more likely to reinforce his current views than help him truly understand.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#183
post #47

What is regrettable in all this is that no one seems to consider the possibility that people may have nuanced views about gay marriage. According to the mob you're either a saint or a bigot, and thus Eich's value as a human being was supposedly entirely determined by this one opinion he voiced in 2008. I'm staunchly in favor of gay marriage, which I consider to be a no-brainer -- but it seems to me the motivations of…

The reaction to Eich is best seen through a lens of human group power dynamics, as it isn't logically consistent with some supposed ideals (civil discourse, etc.). Geeks have a harder time understanding this social acceptability aspect, especially within a given group or tribe. For this particular political question, a "no gay marriage" opinion has passed into the socially unacceptable in the Bay Area tech crowd.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong to react or ostracize like this, it's just the way crowds of people tend to work. And when tides shift in one direction, a desire by the winning side to celebrate, express power, and pick on the losing happens.

In 2008 it may have been a serious political question in California and the United States as a whole - and we totally can judge based on popular opinion - the difference is supporters narrow the judgment of social acceptability to Eich's narrower group of Bay Area techies. That's why saying it's "obviously wrong" or "there are no rational arguments" is a cop out - and the same denying civil rights argument can be applied to say abortion (denying women's right to choose! Murdering unborn infants!) or opposing affirmative action (racist against minorities! discrimination!).

The main difference? Public opinion rapidly moved against Prop 8 whereas for gun control or abortion it has been far more steady. [Even though over 20% of San Franciscans voted for Prop 8, the number among the educated tech crowd was likely far lower, and same among California as a whole]. Meanwhile, a movement like neo-Nazism is more universally reviled and not socially acceptable in 2014 US, although it may have been mainstream in 1938 Germany, and speaking out against it would leave you ostracized. This is where the "right side of history" aspect becomes interesting. Everything happens within the context of your time and your tribe, and this morality breaks down after these context changes.

Because the opinion on gay marriage is so universal within the tech crowd of the Bay Area, Eich doesn't really have a way out in this. (Look at the contribution numbers for employees of Google, Facebook, etc.) Meanwhile minority opinions on gun control, abortion, etc. are still socially acceptable but will still trigger suspicion. Ditto on economic issues and the entire anti-libertarian techie backlash, even though libertarianism continues to be weaker than liberalism. For another industry and group, look at Whole Foods' CEO writing an anti-Obamacare Op ed which triggered a backlash - the difference is that Eich said nothin, and most definitely continued to adopt gay-friendly policies at his workplace.

In medieval Europe, the adherence to your group (or broader society) was enforced through excommunication, in communist Russia, through purging and re-education camps, in Hollywood during the Red Scare, via McCarthyism and impossibility of finding a job. In Silicon Valley, is it by Internet campaigns and removal from high-ranking positions? What supposed Eich defenders are saying is - let's try not to be like that, no matter how righteous we believe our opinions to be.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>because people find it easier to heap hatred on someone they've never met, than to act with dignity and respect. Turn it around. Eich found it easier to treat millions of people he's never met as second class citizens, than to act with dignity and respect. There are two sides to this story, and you seem to be very eager to tell the one and handwave the other for a "why can't we all just get along" platitude.

I'm not qualified to tell the other side of the story. I don't know why Eich made that contribution. Neither do you. It might have been family pressure, it might have honestly been that he's religious and doesn't believe the word "marriage" can be applied to same sex couple (who had Domestic partnerships available in California, which provide the same legal rights as marriage, so I find the "second class citizen" arg…

"Family" or "religious" pressure is fucking pathetic.

We're supposed to be talking about adults here, why don't you change his diapers while you're at it?

If family or community is such a strong force in our lives, maybe the systemic criminalization of those concepts for certain people is a bigger tragedy than you admit.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really so hard for you to imagine that not everyone comes from the same background and upbringing? Moreover, is it so hard to believe that not everyone who supported prop8 was a gay-hating bigot who wants to see them all burn in hell or whatever? With every political standpoint, there is a spectrum of supporters who support the cause - for varying reasons and varying intensity. It's very important to keep this…

If you're willing to donate $1000 dollars to a bigoted cause, you're a bigot. It doesn't matter if his religion tells him it's okay; he's still a bigot. It doesn't matter if gays make him feel squicky: he's still a bigot. If my religion told me "black people are children of Ham, therefore you should separate yourself from them" (an argument that was once used), you'd rightly call me a bigot. What's the difference her…

I'm sorry, but Prop 8 passed. By 7 million people.

Boycotting Mozilla? Really? You need to talk about boycotting California. Making a scapegoat out of one single person for what an entire state did is fucking insane.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I at no point in this entire discussion insulted you. And this is in case you delete/edit your comment: http://gyazo.com/780f9733394829fce3b5577edf4091b5 Like I said. We're done here.

I'm not going to delete it, it's there for a reason. Maybe you're just so busy arguing with everyone else that you can't remember who said what, or what we were even talking about. But you've intentionally walked in circles, and had problems making a consistent argument. You claim you wanted rights without even knowing that you had them, or acknowledging that my proposed solution also does away with the separate but…

>I'm not going to delete it, it's there for a reason.

Demonstrating your hypocrisy when you throw around the word "bully", apparently.

> or acknowledging that my proposed solution also does away with the separate but equal bullshit.

That particular argument was debunked both by me up top (what about other states? what about federally? what about non-government entities?) and by other people in this thread. Your proposed solution does nothing of the sort considering that you completely ignore the time issue I've brougnt up twice now.

>You're JUST as bad as the supporters of prop 8, and that's what I'm trying to call out.

More insults?

You have shown beyond any doubt that you are incapable of having a mature discussion without pounding the keyboard like an impudent child ("FUCKHEAD", really?) completely ignoring points that are inconvenient for your argument, and all around going well out of your way to misinterpret what I say and lower the standard of discussion here.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You understand you're the definition of a schoolyard bully, right? I've read all my posts, several times. I'm internally consistent, and I almost always favor cautious respect over ignorant bashing. I'm not even defending Eich, again, I don't know him. I'm stating that a social environment where a man loses a job Mozilla thought he was qualified for because of private personal beliefs and internet outrage is not only…

> loses a job Mozilla thought he was qualified for because of private personal beliefs Ah yes, this again. The old, "yes, his personal values seriously conflict with the employer's values[1] but hey, he can still check his opinions at the door when he comes in to work and do a good job!" gambit. My opinion is that this is transparently balderdash. The CEO represents the brand. The CEO's values matter. The CEO's value…

And that's fair, but when it's inflated into a giant controversy because people stand to profit from the eyes on it (okcupid, anyone?) then I find it very disheartening.

And it is bullying when you personally attack people on either side. Go after prop 8 all you want. Donate all you want to pro-lgbt causes, but don't stoop to the level of a personal attack on another human being because of their beliefs. Being an adult is taking the time to understand someone when they hurt you, instead of trying to hurt them back.

What is not fine is to dump all the hatred and outrage prop-8 has inspired (and to be fair mostly deserved) on one man who happens to be in the media now. You're not arguing anymore about rights, you're actively choosing to persecute someone. That's why I call it bullying.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Marriage has historically been a religious ceremony This is patently false. Religion does not hold a monopoly of any kind on the concept of matrimony. There is a massive problem with your view. You think a religious belief holds any legal sway. It does not. Laws based on religious overtones are absolutely forbidden by the supreme law of the land. This might be different in other countries, but here? No law concerni…

>Religion does not hold a monopoly of any kind on the concept of matrimony. Neither does government, so why does it matter what government calls it?

Because the government definition is tied to various contracts and benefits.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>because people find it easier to heap hatred on someone they've never met, than to act with dignity and respect. Turn it around. Eich found it easier to treat millions of people he's never met as second class citizens, than to act with dignity and respect. There are two sides to this story, and you seem to be very eager to tell the one and handwave the other for a "why can't we all just get along" platitude.

and yet, all these testimonials came out from LGBTQ*'s working at Mozilla, with Brenden Eich, saying that he treated them as equals. Perhaps you could elaborate on when Eich said they were second-class citizens. you know, so you aren't accused of putting words in someone's mouth.

I am not familiar with the asterisk variant: LGBTQ*. Initially I thought it was a italic formatting error but you have used it in a number of places in addition to lgBtq. What does the added asterisk represent? And is there any significance to the capitalization of "lgBtq"?

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#190
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lars may be an asshole, but it is unfair to say that he made less of a contribution to the writing that Cliff did. Lars has writing credits on 8 tracks of Kill'Em All [0], 8 tracks of Ride the Lightning [1], 8 tracks of Master of Puppets [2], and 9 tracks of ...And Justice for All [3], whereas Cliff only has 1, 6, 3, and 1 tracks on said albums respectively. Furthermore, James wrote nearly all of the lyrics himself,…

On the other hand, wasn't Lars the driving force between the terrible mastering of their more recent albums? I remember reading something where he said basically that because he didn't personally hear any clipping and it sounded good in his car that it was good.

From what I understand, Rick Rubin wanted it mastered that way so it sounded "louder" (yet another casualty of the loudness wars) and the band just went with it. Unfortunately, the average consumer (or band member apparently) couldn't care less about audio quality, so it is no surprise that Lars has no qualms about it.

I cannot find a working link for the original interview, but BlabberMouth has the quote you are referring to: http://www.blabbermouth.net/news/metallica-s-lars-ulrich-bre...

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