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A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

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Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#181

Post by peeters »

tshaddox wrote: post #25
justin66 wrote: post #5

Couldn't read the whole thing. I might actually agree with her but the questioner is strawman-level superficial and trite.

I can only imagine how frustrated Mike Rowe was answering those questions. It's a shame he's too tactful to scream "Maybe if you stop blaming literally everything on the political party you weren't raised as, you could spend a minute focusing on real ideas for solving problems!"

If you read closely, you can see that it wasn't an exchange at all. JB wrote a paragraph with multiple phrases and questions, and Mike broke them into individual points and responded to each one in turn. As a result, the format deceptively makes JB look much more stubborn and ignorant than it would if they used a "quote" format rather than a conversation format.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#182

Post by reeses »

m4x wrote: post #142
_delirium wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The trades do not pay well until/unless you specialize into certain areas. A problem that makes this particularly bad is that many now don't pay at all until you manage to become qualified as a high-skill specialist. A lot of the low-end work has been automated, which has gutted the traditional pipeline where you start with low-skill jobs and move upwards. It's not just that low-skill welding jobs (say) don't pay w…

My experience as an electrician is that there's work available even for completely green newbies who don't know anything useful, and once you've worked for a few years and become a registered tradesman you're pretty much sorted for life. I'm not sure where you're getting these anecdotes about poor pay, high risk of injury, short careers and unstable employment. Most of the guys I work with have had long careers (ofte…

> Ironically, I actually terminated my career as a software developer because I was developing RSI and found the work rather unsatisfying (despite really enjoying programming work in general). Working as a tradesman has so far proven to be far more satisfying and far better for my health - plus it leaves me free to work on my own projects after hours rather than forcing me to leave them unfinished since I already spent a full day working inside.

I'm not sure this is really that ironic. Sitting in a chair for 8-14+ hours a day, focusing 25" in front of your face, slouching, pushing your hands into an unnatural position and tweaking your ligaments and tendons, and being stressed about maintaining a level of production is exactly what I would prescribe for physical degeneration.

Throw poor nutrition and little to no exercise in the mix and it's amazing how atrophied the back muscles get. Constant headaches from misusing the trapeziuseseseses and other muscles around c7, lower back pain, pain between the shoulders, this is all the type of back pain that gets "blue collar" workers depending on various analgesics and narcotics.

The fact that it's preventable is especially worrisome, as it's just as hazardous as shorting live voltage down your arm. You're trained to be cognizant of the risks and developers are not.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#183

Post by dredmorbius »

pivnicek wrote: post #26

That font is garbage, hard to read, it's like they'd been downvoted on HN. Please end the light text trend, let us read.

Contrast Rebellion:

I've also found Readability (Instapaper and Pocket are similar) a huge breath of fresh air: http://www.readability.com/articles/jzhgvevd

There's also Stylish / Stylebot browser plugins which let you modify site CSS. I've ... become a tad addicted to that.

/me checks.

Yeah, over 700 sites that I've styled now. Contrast and font sizes are a big nit, nuking annoying elements is another. More drastic layout revamps are still another use, though I reserve that for a small number of sites.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#185

Post by kazagistar »

derekp7 wrote: post #91
quaunaut wrote: post #23

> Think about it. Universities get to decide how much money to charge their students. Likewise, parents and students decide if they can afford to pay it. It’s a pretty simple proposition. But when the government suddenly makes hundreds of billions of dollars in student loans readily available — under the popular (and voter-friendly) theory that “everyone should go to college” — we see an unintended consequence. Well…

How much does it actually cost to educate a student? A full load is about 12 or so hours a week in class (at least back when I went to community college). If a class has 40 students, and the instructor spends 2 hours outside of class for every 1 hour teaching (office hours, curriculum structure, grading), and makes 80K a year, that is 2K per student per year. Now add in the facilities expenses (roof, walls, lights, h…

There is a reason community colleges exist: they are the place where the sole focus is teaching students, and so they can keep prices low.

Of course, you get a somewhat worse education there, due to the fact that the people teaching are essentially similar to grade school teachers in motivation.

Additionally, another important thing to consider is that the degrees that are actually useful have to compete for professionals with industry to some extent if they want to not be left with the dregs. A professor is going to pull $150,000 a year or more in many places, because that is what they could earn elsewhere.

And yeah, then there is the administration, IT, upkeep, dorm housing, campus police, facilities, student medical coverage, and so on.

But if you really want to know... any public university will have public records. Go check. I know that my local university has only slightly increased student tuition rates, and had a massive influx of students seeking lower prices. The problem is that once the slight surge of money is distributed, they are still on the brink of fiscal collapse due to how much the state has cut funding (they lose money for every in-state student, and have to accept them anyways) and are leaking their top researchers left and right due to the incredibly low wages they pay, relatively speaking.

But seriously, go look for yourself.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#186

Post by kazagistar »

The current situation is somewhat problematic, absolutely. But I am pretty sure privatization of universities is exactly the wrong way to go. As far as a society goes, that would be putting the last nail in the coffin for social mobility... if anyone still believes in that. Prices won't drop. At some universities, they will just rise to make up for the lower number of students who are able to afford to pay tuition, and those who are able to afford it (the upper classes) will be able to attend. At other universities, the prices will indeed drop, and they will be unable to retain any truly talented professors, and become a second wave of community colleges and trade schools. And with that, the ability for children of the lower classes will be even more entirely cut out of the ability to rise anywhere beyond our shrinking middle class.

The reason blue-collar work is avoided is that it is a dead end. And as factories close down, the remaining work is more and more just packing boxes and stocking shelves at minimum wage.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#187

Post by eli_gottlieb »

m4x wrote: post #140
taeric wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasn't my post, but I believe the point is that the vast majority of people can't physically do some of these jobs. This is an interesting parallel to the fallacy that many fall into in trying to get really good at sports so that they have a straight path to a lucrative career. Simply put, statistically you are not likely to be able to cut it in that industry.

When you say 'some of these jobs', are you talking about, say, manual labour at oil wells? I have a hard time thinking of any trade that an average person would struggle to thrive in if they were willing to do the work. A few exist, but to use them as a reason to avoid trade work is disingenuous. In fact, even working as a labourer at an oil well is easy enough that one of my friends who normally works as a graphic d…

Some people feel physical work is easier. Some people feel cognitive work is easier. Strangely enough, the subjective ease of the work has little to do with your actual relative ability at it: I've had really stressful or depressing times working in a programming job or a grad-school environment, but I would certainly say my brain is my strong-suit rather than my muscles. In contrast, if I have physical work to do and can let my mind wander a bit more, I find it very easy, if somewhat boring.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#188

Post by eli_gottlieb »

Tloewald wrote: post #153
bmelton wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wall street jobs are super stressful. Stressful enough that people not properly suited for it might kill themselves. Programming jobs are mentally taxing. Mentally taxing enough that people not properly suited for it might become depressed, decide that they're a failure, and/or have a very hard time. Jobs in science require math skills that are hard / expensive to acquire, which one might never master or become good…

Actually when you measure stress it turns out that high-flying jobs are not that stressful. It's having no control over your life that causes stress, and being an underpaid peon is the most stressful situation to be in.

Many high-flying jobs are stressful because they're insecure. Think of an untenured professor or a junior associate at a law firm: up or out, and it's a zero-sum competition! Yes, that's very stressful, even if worrying about your job every few months is less stressful than worrying about making rent every month.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#189

Post by eli_gottlieb »

pnathan wrote: post #159
derleth wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the number of immigrants doing these same hard work in unpleasant conditions while native-born "modern Americans" moan about being unable to find work. Are jobs that pay less than minimum wage even offered to citizens or documented immigrants?

I'm not talking about jobs that pay less than minimum wage. In a place and time, (say, before 2008 :-) ) a hard working landscaper where I used to live took home between $15-$25/hr, and often worked 70 hour weeks. As a rule, these people seemed to be Hispanic. Many of them were and are very hard workers. I don't enquire into people's visa status as a rule of thumb, so I'm afraid I can't answer whether they were being…

>In a place and time, (say, before 2008 :-) ) a hard working landscaper where I used to live took home between $15-$25/hr, and often worked 70 hour weeks. As a rule, these people seemed to be Hispanic. Many of them were and are very hard workers.

And did they want their kids to grow up to be landscapers working 70 hours/week as well? Or did they perhaps want their kids to become fat, spoiled Americans?

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#190

Post by eli_gottlieb »

tomrod wrote: post #46
pachydermic wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to doubt that... I'm just saying there must be some underlying economic reason why that's true. Seems that things are in an equilibrium, but maybe not the optimal one (blasphemy, I know).

It's okay, so long as people behave rationally equilibrium will come ;).

Good news, everyone! Real people are predictably irrational!
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