NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders • Hacker News Board

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#181

Post by ceejayoz » Fri, Oct 25, 2013, 4:23 PM UTC

alan_cx wrote: post #98

meepmorp wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is relying exclusively on information that's been filtered through a foreign government, possibly with its own agenda, a sensible way to gather intelligence?

When they are an ally. Its how the US expects it's allies to behave towards it. Or do foreigners now have every right to assume the US never, ever plays straight and equally massive surveillance budgets should now be turned towards the US by its own allies? Honest broker or not? See, its seems to me this is the core of the arrogance accusation the US gets. The US holds its had high as a champion of democracy, truth,…

Allies do this all the time.

France spys on the US: http://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squarc...

Israel spies on the us: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard

Germany undoubtedly keeps tabs on us, too.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#182

Post by newsmaster » Fri, Oct 25, 2013, 4:42 PM UTC

loceng wrote: post #172

ihsw wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The next step is bloodless, and the Stasi had it right. > By the 1970s, the Stasi had decided that methods of overt persecution which had been employed up to that time, such as arrest and torture, were too crude and obvious. It was realised that psychological harassment was far less likely to be recognised for what it was, so its victims, and their supporters, were less likely to be provoked into active resistance, g…

Or people paid to post scripted material, human bots - which I believe there has been evidence leaked at some point that this happens - can't remember where or when or other details unfortunately.

I suspect this is already happening. There was a guide/tutorial posted a while ago on how to hijack a forum/thread and redirect the flow of conversation. I can't find the link but it was very detailed and wouldn't surprise me if someone was profiting from selling such a service as pr/thought/damage control.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#183

Post by 00rion » Fri, Oct 25, 2013, 4:46 PM UTC

jmilloy wrote: post #171

I feel we are taking our eyes off the ball. Domestic spying violates constitutional rights. More to the point, I don't want to support an institution with programs that violate my privacy, no matter what benefits such programs provide. But isn't international spying is different? Honestly, I don't mind supporting an institution with an external espionage programs. Isn't in my best interest? Does it harm me? What are…

If we are justified in spying on foreigners, then foreigners are justified in spying on us. If foreign intelligence agencies have records of all the emails, phone calls, metadata, etc. of US citizens, what's to stop them from handing that information to the NSA and vice versa?

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#184

Post by riffraff » Fri, Oct 25, 2013, 4:57 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #131

frank_boyd wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rule number 1: It's ALWAYS about the money. The agenda is the protection of excessive money/wealth. Which tells you where to look for "who's behind it": Rich people, very rich people. Also: The military-industrial complex. And I honestly don't know how one can take down such a power structure that's in such an advanced stage. I think it's like terminal cancer: it will only die when the host dies.

The military industrial complex is the biggest pile of assignable loot in world history. $5+ trillion over the last decade alone. Far more if you count everything connected to it. They knew the wars couldn't go on perpetually forever, and they'll be damned if they're going to give up all that money. One way to dictate that is through control of the political process.

"They knew the wars couldn't go on perpetually forever" is very optimistic. Europe hadn't had a large scale war for decades before WW1.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#185

Post by riffraff » Fri, Oct 25, 2013, 5:16 PM UTC

omonra wrote: post #135

donquichotte wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"One of the great American tragedies is to have participated in a just war." Kurt Vonnegut

I'd say US has a petty good record in the 20th century: WWI WWII Cold War All won. And for the latter two (I personally think Germany losing WWI was the worst thing that happened to Europe), I am 100% on the side of the US (particular tactics notwithstanding).

cough korea and vietam cough

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#186

Post by oscargrouch » Fri, Oct 25, 2013, 5:21 PM UTC

todayiamme wrote: post #11

I quite frankly don't understand why anyone would condemn such acts of espionage. They are not only essential for a nation state to function successfully, but they are also a far superior way for the US to maintain its hegemony as compared to using acts of brute force. Now I do not condone Orwellian spying on the citizens of your own republic, but this really is their job and it's quite impressive that they're this g…

US Hegemony = US shall rule over all nations of the world ? So US should own every country , because what, US is superior and the others inferiors?

And to maintain or to make this "hegemony" bigger they can use whatever tool they like to protect its own position of superiority and ruler.. really?

Im stunned by this speech and the ideology behind it.. its from people that believe in this dangerous (and ultra-right i must say) believes, that NSA is being feed of; and worst probably the US government has tons of politicians that think that way..

No wonder how the US get into this mess, and if it doesnt clear it up soon... things cant get pretty scary.. cause its way out of control.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#187

Post by sesqu » Fri, Oct 25, 2013, 5:43 PM UTC

belorn wrote: post #121

conductor wrote: post #19

This is the top comment on the Reddit thread: "They went after high ranking military officers . They went after members of congress . The Senate and the House - especially on the intelligence committees, and on the armed services committees and judicial. But they went after other ones too. They went after lawyers and law firms . Heaps of lawyers and law firms. They went after judges . One of the judges is now sitting…

The surveillance service began their history by monitoring enemy armies, knowing what the troop movements were and locating potential weaknesses. Their purpose was to help the military in defending the nation. They later grow to encompass international commerce, as that too related to national defense. Knowing where, how, and who are able to transport material in and out of countries is paramount in successful wars b…

Disproportionate retaliation against insurgency has been popular at around that last stage of yours. It's not that innovative, though, and doesn't qualify as a step.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#188

Post by krylonkid » Fri, Oct 25, 2013, 5:47 PM UTC

venomsnake wrote: post #165

adventured wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Virtual behavior modification and prediction. Inducing an entire culture to gradually change how it behaves, and its beliefs, through a mixture of opportunism on real events, simulated events, and trial balloons. Some of that isn't new, but the ability to use vast computing resources to map behavior prediction of 300 million people to an accurate degree, is. They no longer need your friends, family and neighbors to r…

The fascist state is not rising in America. Fascism is ideology not way of governing a country. Since USSR was oppressive too is like saying the communist state is raising in America. What USA is having is the possibility of devolving into totalitarian state, but what ideology will rule it is yet to be seen IF that happens. The moment when a drone kills US citizen on US soil without judicial oversight you will know t…

Whining is a pathetically accepted pastime in Europe. It assures they will never do anything about their position in the world, which should be equal or more with the US, and condemns them to live in a world where they are helpless.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#189

Post by omonra » Fri, Oct 25, 2013, 5:58 PM UTC

riffraff wrote: post #185

omonra wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say US has a petty good record in the 20th century: WWI WWII Cold War All won. And for the latter two (I personally think Germany losing WWI was the worst thing that happened to Europe), I am 100% on the side of the US (particular tactics notwithstanding).

cough korea and vietam cough

Sure - both engagements were part of the Cold War which US has won.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#190

Post by MrBuddyCasino » Fri, Oct 25, 2013, 5:59 PM UTC

ihsw wrote: post #159

belorn wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The surveillance service began their history by monitoring enemy armies, knowing what the troop movements were and locating potential weaknesses. Their purpose was to help the military in defending the nation. They later grow to encompass international commerce, as that too related to national defense. Knowing where, how, and who are able to transport material in and out of countries is paramount in successful wars b…

The next step is bloodless, and the Stasi had it right. > By the 1970s, the Stasi had decided that methods of overt persecution which had been employed up to that time, such as arrest and torture, were too crude and obvious. It was realised that psychological harassment was far less likely to be recognised for what it was, so its victims, and their supporters, were less likely to be provoked into active resistance, g…

> Facebook is already impersonating your friends and family by showing fraudulent "likes"

Do you have a source for that?