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NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

theguardian.com

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Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#161

Post by pradocchia »

cmdkeen wrote: post #150
conductor wrote: post #19

This is the top comment on the Reddit thread: "They went after high ranking military officers . They went after members of congress . The Senate and the House - especially on the intelligence committees, and on the armed services committees and judicial. But they went after other ones too. They went after lawyers and law firms . Heaps of lawyers and law firms. They went after judges . One of the judges is now sitting…

The FBI did this for decades - Hoover's level of corruption is truly scary. He had dirt on every incoming US President and most representatives for years, and would offer to help his chosen candidate during the election cycle. But it ended with his death and there was a backlash from power. That's what doesn't make me worry about the NSA actually spying on US political figures. As for them spying on foreigners - so w…

But it ended with his death and there was a backlash from power. That's what doesn't make me worry about the NSA actually spying on US political figures.

On the contrary, FBI Deputy Director W. Mark Felt brought down Nixon through the Washington Post, in his role as Deep Throat of Watergate fame.

This all happened after Hoover died in 72.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#162

Post by prof_hobart »

junto wrote: post #153
prof_hobart wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Within the UK, the general public has not favored the Guardian's reporting on the Snowden-NSA files. Many see it as anti-British Apologies if I've missed it somewhere in your post, but where are you getting this from? Much of the rest of the press is, rather strangely given their seemingly life-or-death battle to defend their right to print celebrity tittle-tattle, mostly siding with the government on this. But I'm…

General public opinion was a bit exaggerated as I was talking about the people around me and their open reactions to Snowden's whistle-blowing. However, if you feel like it, you can read the 1100 comments on this BBC article and enjoy the anti-Snowden sentiment: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24486649 Hint: Pay close attention to the 'editor's picks'. In my opinion the British public seem to see Snowden as a traitor. '…

Whereas the people I've talked to about it tend to fall much more into the "disapproving of but not surprised with the NSA" camp.

And if you look at the top rated comments, rather than the BBC editor's personal picks, you'll see a fair amount of "Totalitarianism is a far greater threat to freedom than terrorism."-type comments before you get to any attacking Snowden's actions.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#163

Post by ihsw »

7952 wrote: post #144
mythz wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Information is power and power is money. They can use it to protect themselves and control high-ranking officials to ensure, for instance, that they will always be well-founded to be able to continue unfettered in their mission to acquire even more information and power.

The scary thing is that they would not have any leverage on people who have no skeletons in the cupboard. A morally "clean" president may shut them down. In a twisted way it would be in their interest to see bad people in power.

Not at all. Lies are proliferated as truth as a matter of official policy -- misinformation campaigns. The truth doesn't matter when you can drown it out.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#164

Post by w_t_payne »

shrughes wrote: post #107
bobwaycott wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why on earth is it acceptable for the NSA--or any other foreign state's intelligence services--to know the internal dealings of foreign governments? You're acting as if that isn't something that should be questioned, and should just be accepted as a general good in both domestic and international policy. Many of us do not think that such a position is tenable or acceptable, much less a proven and legitimate point of…

> All sovereign states--be they allies or rogues--have a legitimate claim to and expectation of privacy where their internal dealings are concerned. They're governments . They don't have any rights and as local monopolists of violence certainly don't have any expectation of laxity in others' vigilance.

There really aren't that many laws governing how nation-states should behave towards one another; and there certainly isn't any notion of rights to fall back on. The international arena is effectively a lawless "wild west" world, and it shows; particularly in the attitude and demeanour of those who have been exposed to its' vicissitudes for any significant length of time.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#165

Post by venomsnake »

adventured wrote: post #129
belorn wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The surveillance service began their history by monitoring enemy armies, knowing what the troop movements were and locating potential weaknesses. Their purpose was to help the military in defending the nation. They later grow to encompass international commerce, as that too related to national defense. Knowing where, how, and who are able to transport material in and out of countries is paramount in successful wars b…

Virtual behavior modification and prediction. Inducing an entire culture to gradually change how it behaves, and its beliefs, through a mixture of opportunism on real events, simulated events, and trial balloons. Some of that isn't new, but the ability to use vast computing resources to map behavior prediction of 300 million people to an accurate degree, is. They no longer need your friends, family and neighbors to r…

The fascist state is not rising in America. Fascism is ideology not way of governing a country. Since USSR was oppressive too is like saying the communist state is raising in America.

What USA is having is the possibility of devolving into totalitarian state, but what ideology will rule it is yet to be seen IF that happens.

The moment when a drone kills US citizen on US soil without judicial oversight you will know that that danger is real. But you are still far far away from that.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#166

Post by FBT »

jessaustin wrote: post #78
pvnick wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember this post being made here on HN around when the revelations first started coming out and we were still trying to collect ourselves and adjust to the new realities of omnipresent surveillance. It was on the front page and had a ton of upvotes. I really hope that Snowden has evidence of this. Whether he does or not is just about make-it-or-break-it for whether we'll see any real reform.

I can imagine a scenario in which even rock solid evidence of that sort wouldn't lead to real reform. "Hello Senator thanks so much for meeting with us today. We understand you're considering co-sponsoring that new 'privacy' bill. We just wanted to take a few minutes of your time to emphasize some points that we feel have some bearing on the bill in question. "I have here in front of me a few hard copies of some of y…

For all that the US government has done some really nasty stuff, I don't believe they are really evil people. They are doing what they think is best for their country, based on their ideas of what is best. No one is rubbing their hands together and cackling over the evil laws that they past.

Given this, congress has passed some pretty nasty stuff. But they were doing it for all the best reasons. They are honorable people, who likely wouldn't fold to blackmail, if they thought that they were being blackmailed into doing something bad for the US. I respect them that much, at least.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#167

Post by sailfast »

conductor wrote: post #29
ceejayoz wrote: post #6

This is the understood and expected function of the NSA, isn't it? Collecting signals intelligence from foreign sources? Does anyone honestly believe the Germans aren't regularly trying to figure out ways to listen to American officials' communications? I find the NSA's domestic spying to be appalling... but this is the sort of thing everyone knew the NSA was responsible for since its inception.

But we are not at war with everyone, and those countries involved (like Germany, France and Italy) are our partners, economical and military partners. I can accept doing SIGINT on non-friendly countries and organizations but is it correct to spy on your own people and partner countries?

It would be perfectly reasonable for politicians and diplomats in allied countries the world over to express mock outrage at this so they can keep their voters / citizens appeased that they have asserted their sovereignty, while continuing the relationship with the united states. I'm not sure these leaders are as upset as the headlines make out, but I haven't read any transcripts of the discussions.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#168

Post by rsanders »

cmdkeen wrote: post #150
conductor wrote: post #19

This is the top comment on the Reddit thread: "They went after high ranking military officers . They went after members of congress . The Senate and the House - especially on the intelligence committees, and on the armed services committees and judicial. But they went after other ones too. They went after lawyers and law firms . Heaps of lawyers and law firms. They went after judges . One of the judges is now sitting…

The FBI did this for decades - Hoover's level of corruption is truly scary. He had dirt on every incoming US President and most representatives for years, and would offer to help his chosen candidate during the election cycle. But it ended with his death and there was a backlash from power. That's what doesn't make me worry about the NSA actually spying on US political figures. As for them spying on foreigners - so w…

I have never been able to follow the logical step between "this is pretty obviously a bad thing" and "but it's okay and everybody should shut up about it because it was 'common knowledge' -- i.e. what we might have previously called conspiracy theories -- among some unspecified set of people who may or may not have been dismissed as tinfoil hat wearers".

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#169

Post by ceejayoz »

swombat wrote: post #96
ceejayoz wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Germany is not plotting against the United States. What scenario would they use info for? Being certain that Germany is not plotting against the United States, I'd guess.

That's not how alliances and trust work. In this context, suspicion is a form of accusation - and it is wholly inappropriate and wrongful for the US to accuse Germany or France of plotting against it's national security interests. Otoh, what this establishes is that in fact, the US is quite willing to consider actions that may damage the national security interests of its allies. In short, this sort of spying is a si…

> Otoh, what this establishes is that in fact, the US is quite willing to consider actions that may damage the national security interests of its allies.

That's long since been established. Hell, the Pentagon has plans for an invasion of Canada.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#170

Post by xradionut »

FBT wrote: post #166
jessaustin wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can imagine a scenario in which even rock solid evidence of that sort wouldn't lead to real reform. "Hello Senator thanks so much for meeting with us today. We understand you're considering co-sponsoring that new 'privacy' bill. We just wanted to take a few minutes of your time to emphasize some points that we feel have some bearing on the bill in question. "I have here in front of me a few hard copies of some of y…

For all that the US government has done some really nasty stuff, I don't believe they are really evil people. They are doing what they think is best for their country, based on their ideas of what is best. No one is rubbing their hands together and cackling over the evil laws that they past. Given this, congress has passed some pretty nasty stuff. But they were doing it for all the best reasons. They are honorable pe…

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Why don't you dig around and look at all the pieces of information, abuses, problems not corrected, situations allowed to spiral out of control, the waste of trillions of dollars, the cover ups, the intimidation, the assassinations, the governments overthrown, the hundreds of thousands of dead in other countries..., then come have a discussion about evil and the folks the control our government.

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