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CrossFit's Dirty Little Secret

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Re: CrossFit's Dirty Little Secret

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Hogwash. Each person is responsible for their own actions. Yes, competition might help people push themselves, but that shouldn't turn you into a mindless machine that will self destruct just to get the win. If it does, then you have no one to blame but yourself. Bullshit. A Crossfit trainer telling you to do high-rep barbell deadlifts is the equivalent of a doctor prescribing you ten times the dose of a drug you n…

No, they're not at all equivalent. As I wrote elsewhere in this thread, in the six years I've been doing them high-rep olympic lifts have never injured me, but a 1RM clean and jerk has. So until you can come to me with a large scale study supporting your point, you are just making baseless assertions that are contradicted by my personal (albeit anecdotal) experience.

The quality of discussion on HN has fallen so far that we are now using anecdotal evidence to argue that doing a complex multi-joint mechanical movement with heavy weights in a high-rep, high-tempo fashion is not dangerous, and the burden of proof is on dem non-Crossfitters to use large scale studies to prove that it is.

I, too, have written elsewhere in this thread. Specifically, I wrote that these lifts are so complex that Olympic athletes spend years learning and mastering proper form, and go through very strict regimens to ensure their form does not break under heavier loads. There's a reason for that: the human body operates within certain parameters and going outside those parameters in the name of "pushing your limits" can permanently cripple you.

So there is your "large scale study:" look at how Olympic athletes do it, because that's the way to do it safely and without destroying your muscles, joints and internal organs.

Re: CrossFit's Dirty Little Secret

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't think form breaks down after a few reps nearly as much as you say. Then you don't know much about training the Olympic lifts or power movements in general. Take a look at this graph -- http://i.imgur.com/vFP0D58.png -- from Practical Programming for Strength Training (Rippetoe, Kilgore, & Pendlay, pg. 131). "Figure 5-3. Electromyogram (EMG) and force production tracings from a high-rep set. Note that the mus…

I actually own that book and have read the whole thing...most of it more than once. I'm not saying that motor control doesn't go down. I'm saying that it doesn't go down enough to make it dangerous at the lighter weights. I have been doing high and low rep Olympic lifts since 2007. The only injury I ever got was on a 1RM clean and jerk. That might have been technique related, but it's probably more related to me havi…

For the love of God please stop with the anecdotal evidence.

Re: CrossFit's Dirty Little Secret

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've been CrossFitting for over 6 years, owned an affiliate for 4 years, and founded the largest independent CrossFit-style competition series in the country (as far as I know). Ah, the No True Crossfit Gym argument. Everyone always seems to come from the one good Crossfit gym where correct form is emphasised. Where the coaches are wonderful. And so on. The point is: trainees very rarely have the knowledge, qualifi…

Our gym is not perfect, but we set standards and have a mission to serve clients in the most effective way possible. What if HQ has good goals and it's not about "milking," but exposing people to a more effective fitness methodology? Personally, I believe that quality is going to drive the success or failure of CrossFit, and that's why we (and many other successful gyms) have been very devoted to making sure quality…

"and it's not about "milking," but exposing people to a more effective fitness methodology?"

Oh my, this is so funny. Yes, Crossfit is in some ways better, but I personally have a corollary:

No mainstream exercise/diet technique is effective.

Do you know someone that got fit by reading "Men's Health" BS? Well, surprising isn't it? Not at all!

And they need it to make it less boring for the average Joe, also allowing a good amount of people to go, they're decreasing individual effectiveness.

The fact that the champions use a specialized approach corroborates this.

Not to mention a lot of exercises are tiring and "looks good on paper" but their effectiveness is debatable.

Re: CrossFit's Dirty Little Secret

#185

TL;DR: I got rhabdo from crossfit last year. My CPK was 100,000 and I spent 5 days in the hospital. I wasn't overweight but I wasn't fit when I got it, and I got it during the first day of a beginner course. Ask me anything. ============================== I did crossfit for a couple of months in 2010 and loved it, but I had to stop since I moved to a new apartment and the gym times wouldn't work with the longer commu…

Wow this is a bit scary!

I started an high intensity program 2 weeks ago (p90x) and I had some pain after the first day for at least two days but I didn't pay attention to my urine. Should I go to my doctor? If I had rhabdomyolysis would I get any other symptoms after a week?

Re: CrossFit's Dirty Little Secret

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they're not at all equivalent. As I wrote elsewhere in this thread, in the six years I've been doing them high-rep olympic lifts have never injured me, but a 1RM clean and jerk has. So until you can come to me with a large scale study supporting your point, you are just making baseless assertions that are contradicted by my personal (albeit anecdotal) experience.

The quality of discussion on HN has fallen so far that we are now using anecdotal evidence to argue that doing a complex multi-joint mechanical movement with heavy weights in a high-rep, high-tempo fashion is not dangerous, and the burden of proof is on dem non-Crossfitters to use large scale studies to prove that it is. I, too, have written elsewhere in this thread. Specifically, I wrote that these lifts are so comp…

That's not your large scale study because they are focused on something completely different--namely max weight. A 135 lb clean and jerk is quite light in the grand scheme of things, but it can do a whole lot for your fitness when viewed in a holistic program that includes other exercises. Anecdotal evidence may not have the weight of a large-scale study, but it's not meaningless. In the absence of any other evidence, it is an indication that the mean probably tilts towards one side. And I have yet to see any real evidence that high rep olympic lifts are dangerous other than the non sequitur that they're complex motor movements.

Re: CrossFit's Dirty Little Secret

#187

When I first started doing weights, my father and his brother both drilled one piece of advice into my head: training too much is worse than not training at all. After reading this article, I'm grateful for it!

My uncles gave the same advice, if you overtrain you're not helping your development but increasing your recovery time.

Re: CrossFit's Dirty Little Secret

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually own that book and have read the whole thing...most of it more than once. I'm not saying that motor control doesn't go down. I'm saying that it doesn't go down enough to make it dangerous at the lighter weights. I have been doing high and low rep Olympic lifts since 2007. The only injury I ever got was on a 1RM clean and jerk. That might have been technique related, but it's probably more related to me havi…

For the love of God please stop with the anecdotal evidence.

I don't see you busting out any peer-reviewed studies to support your claim. If you don't have that, then it's your word against mine. The fact that most of the people who have done these movements do them in low reps and really high weight doesn't prove your point either. I have actually done the movements under question in both rep schemes, and it doesn't sound like you have.

Re: CrossFit's Dirty Little Secret

#189
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over the years I have contemplated joining Crossfit (mostly for the comradery aspect), but the insane level of cult mentality has made me shy away from it every time. That's a good reason to shun a particular location or instructor, but I and a lot of other people have had completely opposite experiences. If the workouts interest you, I encourage you to give it a try and see what the instructors are like. Maybe ask J…

>>That's a good reason to shun a particular location or instructor, but I and a lot of other people have had completely opposite experiences. Before I posted that, I knew that a Crossfitter would respond and defend Crossfit. That is the level of cult-like irrationality I am talking about: looking at statistics (such as the ones about much higher incidence of Rhambo in Crossfitters) and responding with anecdotal evide…

So anyone who disagrees with you is inherently proving your argument?

That's not a very pleasant way to discuss things online. You should read http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: CrossFit's Dirty Little Secret

#190
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After you went out of your way to thank someone for an anecdote that confirmed your bias, you'll have to forgive me for believing that you're reacting to my point of view, not the nature of my evidence. All I said is that you should see for yourself and trust your own judgment. To quote myself, "they don't do much to actively ensure the quality of local affiliates.... I wouldn't encourage anyone to blindly trust what…

>>After you went out of your way to thank someone for an anecdote that confirmed your bias... You sound hopelessly confused. We are not discussing anecdotes. We are discussing actual statistics provided in the original article that clearly showed Crossfit to have much higher rates of injuries and potentially-fatal medical conditions. When you put the burden on new people to figure out whether their affiliates are hig…

> We are discussing actual statistics provided in the original article that clearly showed Crossfit to have much higher rates of injuries

This is equivalent to saying that surfers are more likely to get be the victims of shark attacks. No duh. It's a trivially obvious conclusion, but still really unlikely. CrossFit has done its job in educating people about the seriousness of rhabdo. There's absolutely no way they can ensure that none of their affiliates go off the deep end with craziness. That's a fundamental fact of scaling a business.

You're only looking at the negative side of this issue. But the reality is that from the high level of systems analysis, it's a tradeoff. For every person that has gotten rhabdo from CrossFit there are thousands of others that have had their lives significantly improved. In my case I got stronger and more fit. My body fat, cholesterol, and blood pressure decreased and I have actual data to prove it. I also noticed increased quickness, agility, and reaction time in everyday life.

> Most beginners are not capable of accurately assessing whether the types of workouts done in CrossFit and the manner in which they are done are healthy or not.

This is the case with a number of disciplines from fitness to martial arts to dance, so there's no substitute for educating yourself and making an informed assessment of the risks and rewards.

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