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CrossFit's Dirty Little Secret

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Re: CrossFit's Dirty Little Secret

#171

Post by jacques_chester »

kylered wrote: post #164
jacques_chester wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've been CrossFitting for over 6 years, owned an affiliate for 4 years, and founded the largest independent CrossFit-style competition series in the country (as far as I know). Ah, the No True Crossfit Gym argument. Everyone always seems to come from the one good Crossfit gym where correct form is emphasised. Where the coaches are wonderful. And so on. The point is: trainees very rarely have the knowledge, qualifi…

Our gym is not perfect, but we set standards and have a mission to serve clients in the most effective way possible. What if HQ has good goals and it's not about "milking," but exposing people to a more effective fitness methodology? Personally, I believe that quality is going to drive the success or failure of CrossFit, and that's why we (and many other successful gyms) have been very devoted to making sure quality…

> What if HQ has good goals and it's not about "milking," but exposing people to a more effective fitness methodology?

Their behaviour can too easily be constructed into a very negative picture.

I can see Crossfit going one of two ways:

Either it will reach a high water mark and settle down to a steady-state condition. More people are coming into Crossfit, but in many markets there's a saturation of affiliates. Gyms with overheads like full-time, well-trained coaches will be partly driven out by cheaper operations with a CF1 certificate.

Alternatively, someone will construct a successful legal argument that Crossfit is a franchise operation. A subsequent class action lawsuit will turn them into a smoking hole in the ground.

On the upside, millions of people will have learnt that exercising is fun. That is definitely a positive outcome.

Re: CrossFit's Dirty Little Secret

#172

Post by JPKab »

mchughj wrote: post #106
JPKab wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Mark Rippetoe (he's a popular personality in the powerlifting world) was affiliated with Crossfit in the beginning, mainly doing workshops on demonstrating basic barbell lifts. He liked how Crossfit was, at the time, a welcome antidote to the "Globo-Gym" death grip on fitness. But he has distanced himself from Cross-fit for years now, and has a huge amount of criticism due to the emphasis on high-rep Olympic li…

JPKab, I liked the first part of your response. It was accurate and based on fact. Good stuff. Mark's break from the crossfit community is well documented. And also with good reason. You and others have captured it well - olympic lifts executed at high volume carry significant risks. But the rest of your post is garbage. "Monetizations schemes" and "racket"(s)? Two things here: 1/ Any intelligent person that starts a…

"1/ Any intelligent person that starts a crossfit "box" could start a big gym that appeals more widely and make significantly more money. True, they would need more initial capital for the equipment. True, they would have to operate on far lower margins. But at the end of the day they would make more money signing up 1,000 people for $25 a month than signing up 100 people for $200 a month. Gym memberships are nothing more than a subscription service which is subject to the decaying population problem. It is about scale here."

I completely disagree with the notion that these folks would make more money with a standard gym, and are therefore doing CrossFit purely out of passion. I'm sure they are passionate, but the standard gym market is saturated and overrun by large companies.

Re: CrossFit's Dirty Little Secret

#173

Post by pg »

fingerprinter wrote: post #142
smsm42 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought your point was "Crossfit is dumb." and you arguments were that CF is hyper-macho injury cult which routinely sacrifices safety and correct form of exercise for times and numbers. When I pointed out that is not what I see in my CF box, you said it's no true CF and I am engaging in "no true Scotsman". Maybe I missed something here, if that wasn't the point, what was?

I do have to hand it to you, you are an expert troll. Congrats.

Please stop.

Re: CrossFit's Dirty Little Secret

#174

Post by fragsworth »

dkarl wrote: post #59
enraged_camel wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>That's a good reason to shun a particular location or instructor, but I and a lot of other people have had completely opposite experiences. Before I posted that, I knew that a Crossfitter would respond and defend Crossfit. That is the level of cult-like irrationality I am talking about: looking at statistics (such as the ones about much higher incidence of Rhambo in Crossfitters) and responding with anecdotal evide…

After you went out of your way to thank someone for an anecdote that confirmed your bias, you'll have to forgive me for believing that you're reacting to my point of view, not the nature of my evidence. All I said is that you should see for yourself and trust your own judgment. To quote myself, "they don't do much to actively ensure the quality of local affiliates.... I wouldn't encourage anyone to blindly trust what…

There is a very obvious cult-like mindset among a huge number of Crossfit members. You're being really dishonest by pretending it's not there, and it makes you seem like one of them.

I know several people who started doing Crossfit and they became fucking lunatics about it. It's got that bad smell of crazy on it, like Scientology and pyramid-scheme scam companies.

Re: CrossFit's Dirty Little Secret

#175

Post by smegel »

enraged_camel wrote: post #48
fingerprinter wrote: post #40

To be honest, Crossfit has quite a few dark secrets. This one, though, can kill you. What are crossfit's dark secrets? First and foremost, well, it's terrible. The programming coming from HQ is just plain awful. There are many programs out there now (Outlaw, Competitors WOD, CF Football etc) that fill the gap and actually give decent programming, but the programming from crossfit.com is really, really bad. Did you kn…

Whoever came up with the idea of high-rep olympic lifts needs to be shot. Seriously, it's incredibly dangerous. Olympic lifts are very complex mechanical movements and it takes real Olympic athletes months if not years to master the form. There's a reason for that: if the form is not correct, you open yourself to significant risk of potentially-permanent injury. The problem with doing them with high repetition (and u…

This is actually the reason I stopped CrossFit.

I was never injured or anything, but I wanted to treat oly lifting with more respect than a WOD provides.

Every lift should be your best lift with a maximum focus on technique.

I would probably do CrossFit again if I found a box that did not include oly in WODs.

Re: CrossFit's Dirty Little Secret

#176

Post by spinlock »

enraged_camel wrote: post #155
dkarl wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After you went out of your way to thank someone for an anecdote that confirmed your bias, you'll have to forgive me for believing that you're reacting to my point of view, not the nature of my evidence. All I said is that you should see for yourself and trust your own judgment. To quote myself, "they don't do much to actively ensure the quality of local affiliates.... I wouldn't encourage anyone to blindly trust what…

>>After you went out of your way to thank someone for an anecdote that confirmed your bias... You sound hopelessly confused. We are not discussing anecdotes. We are discussing actual statistics provided in the original article that clearly showed Crossfit to have much higher rates of injuries and potentially-fatal medical conditions. When you put the burden on new people to figure out whether their affiliates are hig…

I know the article's title calls rhabdo a secret but if you read the article - and the comment at the top of this thread - you'll notice that Glassman and every CrossFit coach I've ever met talks about it all the time. In fact, I bet you can't find one person who does CrossFit who doesn't know what it is.

Re: CrossFit's Dirty Little Secret

#177

Post by spinlock »

kylered wrote: post #166
mchughj wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, TL;DRs go at the top. That is the whole point. :) Second, most crossfit gyms at not well-managed. They may mean well but the quality of the instruction can be awful. Finally, you should post the name of your gym and the competition here. I travel a lot and like to visit quality crossfit locations!

Is that your experience? I travel a lot and find that most gyms do a good job.

I've trained at 3 CrossFit gums and one was bad. The coach would always try to get you to go too heavy and prescribe rediculous weights for the workouts. The other two are fantastic but totally different from each other. All in all I'm kind if surprised that hacker news isn't mire interested in glassman's business model that allowed him to scale a gym.

Re: CrossFit's Dirty Little Secret

#178

Post by enraged_camel »

spinlock wrote: post #176
enraged_camel wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>After you went out of your way to thank someone for an anecdote that confirmed your bias... You sound hopelessly confused. We are not discussing anecdotes. We are discussing actual statistics provided in the original article that clearly showed Crossfit to have much higher rates of injuries and potentially-fatal medical conditions. When you put the burden on new people to figure out whether their affiliates are hig…

I know the article's title calls rhabdo a secret but if you read the article - and the comment at the top of this thread - you'll notice that Glassman and every CrossFit coach I've ever met talks about it all the time. In fact, I bet you can't find one person who does CrossFit who doesn't know what it is.

>>you'll notice that Glassman and every CrossFit coach I've ever met talks about it all the time.

Look dude, the problem is not that they don't talk about it. The problem is that they make people do complex exercises in a manner that significantly increases risk of rhabdo and a ton of other injuries despite knowing about those risks. This is irresponsible at best and grossly negligent at worst.

There is a way to lift weights in a safe and responsible manner. Crossfit not only refuses to teach its clients that, but also builds and encourages a culture where injuries become badges of honor. That is what makes it a cult.

Re: CrossFit's Dirty Little Secret

#179

Post by mightybyte »

enraged_camel wrote: post #159
mightybyte wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there's much evidence to demonstrate that high-rep olympic lifts done by a trained person are any more dangerous then low-rep lifts at high weight. Yes, if you don't have good technique you're asking for trouble, but that's not what we're talking about here. I don't think form breaks down after a few reps nearly as much as you say. There's probably a point at which it will, but there's a lot of room for…

>>Hogwash. Each person is responsible for their own actions. Yes, competition might help people push themselves, but that shouldn't turn you into a mindless machine that will self destruct just to get the win. If it does, then you have no one to blame but yourself. Bullshit. A Crossfit trainer telling you to do high-rep barbell deadlifts is the equivalent of a doctor prescribing you ten times the dose of a drug you n…

No, they're not at all equivalent. As I wrote elsewhere in this thread, in the six years I've been doing them high-rep olympic lifts have never injured me, but a 1RM clean and jerk has. So until you can come to me with a large scale study supporting your point, you are just making baseless assertions that are contradicted by my personal (albeit anecdotal) experience.

Re: CrossFit's Dirty Little Secret

#180

Post by ryall »

jacques_chester wrote: post #126
sshillo wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been training at Crossfit Virtuousity for 5 months, 4 days a week. I think that they have an amazing program that reduces risk of injury as compared to many other non crossfit workouts I have done in the past. First off they stress mobility, which many workout regimens don't do. I never really realized how important this was until I started crossfit. Most workouts consist of 15-20 minutes solely concentrating on…

> Second, no one has mentioned the concept of scaling, which is core to crossfit. Good point. I too remember the shock and amazement that washed over the entire training universe when Crossfit invented progressive resistance and skill progressions. The only thing I can remember that was more impressive was that time Greg Glassman invented gravity. That was incredible.

That's an impressive level of sarcasm, but I don't think he's saying that scaling is exclusive to crossfit, just that it's actively encouraged.
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