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Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

johannakoll.posterous.com

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Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#181

Post by rmc »

chacham15 wrote: post #108
rmc wrote: post #4

For those who think it doesn't matter, and that there is no sexism and that women aren't be discriminated against due to the pure fact of their gender, be aware that there have been double blinded scientific studies that show that if you change the name of a CV/resume to a female name when applying for science jobs, they don't get as much/as good offers. If this was question about whether a new drug worked or not, th…

FWIW, it has also been shown that women are okay accepting lower salaries and are less likely to ask for raises (i.e. less aggressive at trying to get better wages and such). This is not to say that I think that sexism doesnt exist, but rather that your 'evidence' is potentially misleading/false.

But if a group of people are constantly offered less (as this evidence shows), then it makes sense that that group will ask for less. The lower rate of asking for raises could be caused by the same sexism at play.

(You include evidence in quotes, to imply it's not real evidence. You can see the paper there, what's wrong with the evidence? If you don't want to accept the evidence just because you dislike what it tells us about the world, you are not a scientist)

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#182

Post by vannevar »

paulhauggis wrote: post #149
vannevar wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would anyone raise even an eyebrow if a woman sliped a sexy male model photo in a slide? The context is not symmetrical. Men have not been historically discriminated against in the workplace on the same massive scale that women have.

wow, so that makes it right? Men are definitely discriminated at the workplace. I've worked at a few offices which comprised of mostly females and the sexist jokes and discrimination against men was unbearable. It doesn't get stopped because most people don't see it as a high priority.

wow, so that makes it right?

No, the parent comment asked whether anyone would raise an eyebrow if a woman posted a sexy male picture, implying that men are being more reasonable in acquiescing to such humor. I was pointing out why most men aren't as disturbed by it.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#183

Post by rmc »

Camillo wrote: post #116
rmc wrote: post #4

For those who think it doesn't matter, and that there is no sexism and that women aren't be discriminated against due to the pure fact of their gender, be aware that there have been double blinded scientific studies that show that if you change the name of a CV/resume to a female name when applying for science jobs, they don't get as much/as good offers. If this was question about whether a new drug worked or not, th…

Playing devil's advocate here: that shows that scientists take gender into account when making job offers to students, but it begs the question as to whether doing so is unfairly discriminatory. It's possible that CV+gender is a better predictor of future job performance than CV alone (for example, if female applicants are exceedingly good at writing CVs specifically). Notably, the effect of the faculty participant's…

It's possible that CV+gender is a better predictor of future job performance than CV alone (for example, if female applicants are exceedingly good at writing CVs specifically).

Perhaps, but the modern law says you cannot take gender into account. The people reviewing the CVs claimed not to be taking this into account. But this evidence shows that they are.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#184

Post by jeffcutsinger »

chacham15 wrote: post #108
rmc wrote: post #4

For those who think it doesn't matter, and that there is no sexism and that women aren't be discriminated against due to the pure fact of their gender, be aware that there have been double blinded scientific studies that show that if you change the name of a CV/resume to a female name when applying for science jobs, they don't get as much/as good offers. If this was question about whether a new drug worked or not, th…

FWIW, it has also been shown that women are okay accepting lower salaries and are less likely to ask for raises (i.e. less aggressive at trying to get better wages and such). This is not to say that I think that sexism doesnt exist, but rather that your 'evidence' is potentially misleading/false.

It's also been shown that when they do ask for higher salaries or raises they are perceived in a negative light, whereas men who do so are perceived in a positive light.

So they don't ask because if they did it would harm them.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#185

Post by rmc »

coldtea wrote: post #93
Jabbles wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should fix both. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

A lot of us don't think one of the is even a problem. False_Problem

You are a minority. The Western World has moved on, and disapproves of sexism.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#186

Post by WayneDB »

klodolph wrote: post #154
coldtea wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of us don't think one of the is even a problem. False_Problem

> A lot of us don't think one of the is even a problem. The rest of us think that this attitude is part of the problem.

I have a problem: People don't take conspiracy facts and theories seriously. I also think this is a much, much bigger problem than sexism in the workplace. Will you stop what you're doing and work on my problem?

EDIT: You're welcome to work on whatever problem you want. Don't try and tell me what my priorities are though. I disagree with you.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#187

Post by klodolph »

jonnathanson wrote: post #168
rmc wrote: post #4

For those who think it doesn't matter, and that there is no sexism and that women aren't be discriminated against due to the pure fact of their gender, be aware that there have been double blinded scientific studies that show that if you change the name of a CV/resume to a female name when applying for science jobs, they don't get as much/as good offers. If this was question about whether a new drug worked or not, th…

Depending on industry, sexism takes other (equally destructive) forms as well. A friend of mine quit his job at a big law firm that shall not be named when he found that attractiveness was the primary criterion for hiring women. He sat in on a hiring meeting once, where the following sorts of conversations took place: "Katrina. That sounds hot. Do you think Katrina's probably hot? Let's give her an interview." This w…

Someone told me once that a contributing factor to the "jewish lawyer stereotype" was caused by law firms who discriminated against jews — who then started up their own law firms, and outcompeted all the other law firms because it's easier to find talent if you don't discriminate.

The Harlem Globetrotters picked the best of the african-american basketball players, who were not welcome on other teams. The result was predictable in hindsight, they beat the other teams by humiliating margins.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#188

Post by rmc »

rmrfrmrf wrote: post #147
goodside wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a punchline to a joke about some software being superficially attractive, e.g.

Even still, I think it would be inappropriate. Part of the issue here is the anatomical differences between men and women. While seeing a women with large breasts might not seem bothersome to you, I'd venture a guess that a photograph of a closeup of an extremely well-endowed man whose penis is bulging out of his speedo (analogous to a well-endowed woman's breasts spilling out of the top of her bra) that conspicuousl…

Reminds me of a pithy observation: "Homophobia: The fear that men will treat you the way you treat women" (i.e. as sex objects)

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#189

Post by jimzvz »

klodolph wrote: post #152
coldtea wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For those who think it doesn't matter, and that there is no sexism and that women aren't be discriminated against due to the pure fact of their gender, be aware that there have been double blinded scientific studies that show that if you change the name of a CV/resume to a female name when applying for science jobs, they don't get as much/as good offers. Then maybe try to fix that instead of complaining about bikin…

> Then maybe try to fix that instead of complaining about bikinis in powerpoint presentations? 1. You say "instead", as if this were a choice between two alternatives. This is known as the "false dilemma", and it is a logical fallacy. 2. It is not clear how to fix the problem about discrimination based on names on CVs/résumés, whereas the solution to bikinis in powerpoint slides is much simpler (delete the pictures f…

> Suppose for a moment that you are a guy who just graduated from college, make $20,000 a year in your dream internship, and are on the long trek to success in your field. You're in a new city, and don't know many people. You're constantly bombarded with pictures of men who "made it", have $200k cars, wear $10k suits, drink $500 bottles of liquor, and buy their mistresses $80k pieces of jewelry. Now I'm going to kick the analogy up a notch, so it's solidly in the "alternate reality" realm. You date a girl, and she tells you, "My personal goal for you is for you to make six figures next year."

How is this any different from our reality? You really don't need to venture into some alternate reality to experience this.

I think this describes exactly describes the frustration that many men experience. You can be called dumb your entire childhood; it is made clear to you that you are inherently a monster capable of anything, that you have most likely raped someone; it is funny if your genitals are mutilated because you probably deserved it; if a woman hits you, you probably deserved it and you should take it like a man; your life can be ruined by simple accusation by a woman and if she was lying there is no punishment for her; if you divorce, your children will automatically go to your wife unless she is a criminal; even if she initiated the divorce, you will still have to support her; political figures proclaim that women are the true victims of war even though you were the one who lost his legs in battle; if you want to stay at home and look after your kids, you are lazy, if you want to focus on your career you are an uncaring father (either is okay for a woman); you are portrayed as bumbling idiot on television; you are told that you are lucky if a woman gives you the time of day; if you approach a woman you can be called a creep, if you don't you are shy; if your wife hires a hitman to kill you, she will be acquitted because you apparently abused her despite no evidence of this; you are treated like a creep if you show any interest in being around children and any social pressure on you to be successful can apparently only exist in an "alternate reality" but NONE of this matters because you are in a "position of power" so you should just deal with it like a man and make sure you don't show any pictures of women in underwear at a conference (despite how stupid this is) because then you are a sexist pig.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#190

Post by klodolph »

WayneDB wrote: post #186
klodolph wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A lot of us don't think one of the is even a problem. The rest of us think that this attitude is part of the problem.

I have a problem: People don't take conspiracy facts and theories seriously. I also think this is a much, much bigger problem than sexism in the workplace. Will you stop what you're doing and work on my problem? EDIT: You're welcome to work on whatever problem you want. Don't try and tell me what my priorities are though. I disagree with you.

I personally think we should drop everything we're doing RIGHT NOW and work on solving the issue of the heat death of the universe. Everything else can wait.
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