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Octopus intelligence may be related to never-before-seen mutation

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: Octopus intelligence may be related to never-before-seen mutation

#181

Post by thaumasiotes »

suriyaG wrote: post #161
thaumasiotes wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> surprise, cattle are equally emotional, smart, curious etc. Measured how? It would indeed be a surprise if cows were equally emotional, smart, and curious as any other species. Equality on three different dimensions should essentially never happen.

cows might be more in some dimensions like emotion because cattle raise their young unlike octopus which doesn't . does that make the equation any easier to accept? why is this a controversial idea? mammals indeed are smarter than mollusks (of which octopus is one).

> why is this a controversial idea? mammals indeed are smarter than mollusks (of which octopus is one).

Well, what you said before was that cows were equally smart. Do you think "equally smart" and "smarter" mean the same thing?

Re: Octopus intelligence may be related to never-before-seen mutation

#182

Post by dudefeliciano »

colordrops wrote: post #162
dudefeliciano wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vegetarianism, in Europe at least, requires one to be open to a different diet than what one is used to, usually going against social and cultural norms due to a personal conviction that is reached by analysis and reflection, while veganism brings that to the extreme

Everyone has different ethical frameworks. The label of "extreme" is arbitrary, not objective. I'm sure you would never rape or murder someone. Does that make you an extremist? You don't think it's OK to occasionally rape and murder people right? Vegans' ethical framework is that the murder of animals is unacceptable, and so there is no middle ground. That's not extremism, it's a different framework. To frame it as a…

Pretty sure vegetarians and vegans both are against the killing of animals, so don't know what you are trying to argue. And yes it is very much a spectrum that (very roughly, and not exclusively) goes from: cannibalism -> eating animals -> eating animal derived products -> eating only vegetables and fruit -> eating only vegetable and fruit that fell to the ground without being picked.

And I find it ironic in that you are kind of proving the point, by painting it as a black and white issue. This is what the "extremism" means to me. Another form of that spectrum could be: Endangered species -> wild animals -> farmed animals. Do you think it would be as wrong to kill the last specimens of an animal that is about to go extinct as it would be to kill an animal that has been bred over thousands of years and could probably not survive in the wild on its own? While i am against all killing, when presented with this choice the answer is pretty clear to me.

And you even made a similar distinction yourself in another comment here:

>I hope people say the same about all animals, but especially mammals.

So again, not sure what you are trying to argue.

Re: Octopus intelligence may be related to never-before-seen mutation

#183

Post by Lorkki »

messe wrote: post #139
shafyy wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This just proves you don't have a lot of knowledge about food. First of all, there are many studies that show that plant-based meat alternatives are healthier than their meat counterparts. Just because a food is processed doesn't mean it's unhealthy. Or are you under the impresssion your sausage and burger patty are health foods? Second, just like with non-vegan foods, there is a variety of plant-based meat alternati…

> First of all, there are many studies that show that plant-based meat alternatives are healthier than their meat counterparts Define healthier, and link the studies. I eat vegetarian more often than not these days (although I don't usually use plant-based meat), and I'm not disagreeing with you. But cite your sources rather than making vague health claims.

Fair point, there's a lot of nutritional bunk going about. I'm not an expert either, but the Wikipedia article seems to cover the big studies that I've heard of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meat_alternative#Health

Re: Octopus intelligence may be related to never-before-seen mutation

#185

Post by shafyy »

messe wrote: post #138
shafyy wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm only familar with the brands in Germany unfortunately. You might have Beyond Burger available in India — not my favorite vegan burger patty, but I think it's good enough.

The beyond burger is decent, but there's no way it's fooling someone in a blind taste test.

Hmm not sure. Depends on how well it is prepared. But yes, I said, there are much better brands. But the question was specifically about what's availabe in India, which I have no cllue about.

Re: Octopus intelligence may be related to never-before-seen mutation

#186

Post by shafyy »

srean wrote: post #159
shafyy wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This just proves you don't have a lot of knowledge about food. First of all, there are many studies that show that plant-based meat alternatives are healthier than their meat counterparts. Just because a food is processed doesn't mean it's unhealthy. Or are you under the impresssion your sausage and burger patty are health foods? Second, just like with non-vegan foods, there is a variety of plant-based meat alternati…

Tried some local brand today. Am quiet satisfied with the kebabs. It's easier to fool in a kebab. Thanks to you I have updated my outdated prior. Things have certainly improved.

Thanks for the comment, means a lot and speaks for you to be open minded and try out new things and update your assumptions Certainly, the offering of plant-based meat and cheese alternatives have improved significantly in the past 5 years, and they keep improving.

Re: Octopus intelligence may be related to never-before-seen mutation

#187

Post by shafyy »

messe wrote: post #139
shafyy wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This just proves you don't have a lot of knowledge about food. First of all, there are many studies that show that plant-based meat alternatives are healthier than their meat counterparts. Just because a food is processed doesn't mean it's unhealthy. Or are you under the impresssion your sausage and burger patty are health foods? Second, just like with non-vegan foods, there is a variety of plant-based meat alternati…

> First of all, there are many studies that show that plant-based meat alternatives are healthier than their meat counterparts Define healthier, and link the studies. I eat vegetarian more often than not these days (although I don't usually use plant-based meat), and I'm not disagreeing with you. But cite your sources rather than making vague health claims.

> Define healthier, and link the studies.

Well, why are people who are afraid of a long ingredient lists (without understanding what the ingredients actually are) and just blurt out that vegan meats are unhealthier not asked the same?

In any case, the sister comment linked to some studies. Have a look.

Also, a simple web search will show you that many animal-based meats (such as red meat) are linked to many cancers, this is not even disputed.

Re: Octopus intelligence may be related to never-before-seen mutation

#188

Post by suriyaG »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #181
suriyaG wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

cows might be more in some dimensions like emotion because cattle raise their young unlike octopus which doesn't . does that make the equation any easier to accept? why is this a controversial idea? mammals indeed are smarter than mollusks (of which octopus is one).

> why is this a controversial idea? mammals indeed are smarter than mollusks (of which octopus is one). Well, what you said before was that cows were equally smart. Do you think "equally smart" and "smarter" mean the same thing?

i should've used, at least as smart as. i apologize

Re: Octopus intelligence may be related to never-before-seen mutation

#189

Post by jjk166 »

thelaxiankey wrote: post #168
jjtheblunt wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what about it is not correlation, that you imply?

maybe he/she missed the part where they reconstituted the break in e coli to show that it had the molecular effect they said it did?

I was referring to the correlation (or lack thereof) with intelligence. The e coli work is a non-sequitor.

Re: Octopus intelligence may be related to never-before-seen mutation

#190

Post by jjk166 »

jjtheblunt wrote: post #177
jjk166 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The default assumption is non-correlation. No firm evidence was presented demonstrating correlation. Hence "not even clear it qualifies as correlation." This is a one time event that happened sometime after incirrates and cirrates split. This is like claiming there is a correlation between the Carrington Event of 1859 and the outbreak of the US civil war in 1860. One happened before the other. One could plausibly con…

i understand correlation and causation (as a math person for decades) and the article talks of trying to establish correlation with experiments on e coli and introducing similar breaks. Inserting the same break in the ribosomes of Escherichia coli bacteria made the engineered cells produce proteins with about twice their usual accuracy. they then went looking at the divergence data between the various distantly relat…

I'm referring to the link with intelligence. The e coli experiments has nothing to do with that.

> that doesn't mean they're correlated to each other, let alone causal, of course, in either direction.

Which was my point.

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