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Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife

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Re: Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife

#181

Post by PeterisP »

scarmig wrote: post #6
davesmylie wrote: post #4

It's hard to reconcile the popular folk hero that is Einstein with a letter like this. I suspect a lot of this may come from us not being in a position to judge people from almost 100 years by the standards of today.

I suspect that even a century ago that list of demands would have been seen as very cold and mean.

These aren't 'prenup' demands, these are no-love separation demands. What points exactly feel mean to you?

Requests for lack of intimacy are understandable, given the no love situation. It is strange that the household chores are described - at the time it would be 100% understood that it would be so even if it wasn't written down; apparently it was a problem in their past. I mean, at that time and place, wife not cooking for you would be reasonable grounds for divorce. The "no belittling before our children" is natural as well.

Re: Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife

#182

Post by Tichy »

Tipzntrix wrote: post #163
Tichy wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It must have been really hard to clean up the room and prepare three meals a day. I wonder how the women of the time did manage at all? Clearly the asian child laborers should let themselves be inspired by their example. I don't really understand the fuss. At the time it was a normal arrangement in marriage for women to take care of the house. That arrangement in itself is not belittling to women, it is simply divisi…

That is what he is saying, in a sarcastic manner

OK :-)

Re: Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife

#183

Post by gavanwoolery »

dalke wrote: post #124
gavanwoolery wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even in a modern context, I do not think this list makes Einstein sexist (or a jerk). If my girlfriend did not work, I would ask her to take care of all the chores and meals (which would probably be, at most, 20 hours a week of work). Accordingly, I do not see items A[1-3] on the list as unreasonable, given his wife was not employed at this period in their life. I also happen to be very particular about my desk area,…

I find your comment to be belittling. The amount of chores one does is inversely proportional to the amount of money brought home? "If my girlfriend did not work" is a shorthand for something else. I think it's shorthand for "sit around being lazy all day", which is an emotional decision and not the overt economical one. If your girlfriend is going to school full-time, then that's not work. Would you expect her to pu…

I don't think it is belittling - I would gladly do the same as well. In fact, during the period of time my girlfriend was going to school, I did all of the chores because her degree was very stressful (high cost, high rate of failure) -- despite working fulltime myself.

Respectfully (!), your conclusion relies on a fallacy (perhaps more than one type). This type of fallacy is called an "argument from silence", in which you make an assumption based on a lack of information provided:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_silence

In other words, without knowing all the details of my life (or Einstein's) you can not really conclude our motives, outlook on sexism, etc.

Re: Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife

#184

Post by theorique »

jacquesm wrote: post #159
theorique wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Easy answer. If it's my child or someone I know, save him/her. If they are all strangers, save the greater number. If I know both the child and one or more people among the set of 3, prioritize based on genetic or family proximity. The point is, this can be solved algorithmically and/or game theoretically.

Ask a mother.

Save her child?

Re: Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife

#185

Post by theorique »

dharmach wrote: post #160
theorique wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Easy answer. If it's my child or someone I know, save him/her. If they are all strangers, save the greater number. If I know both the child and one or more people among the set of 3, prioritize based on genetic or family proximity. The point is, this can be solved algorithmically and/or game theoretically.

Add race/nationality/religion/culture and see if your algorithm changes.

Well, people probably skew toward people "like them", broadly speaking.

But it would be interesting to run the experiment in a psychology lab and see what kind of results arise.

Re: Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife

#186

Post by theorique »

jacquesm wrote: post #95
pfortuny wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cultivared men were not jerks then as a general rule.

The position of women in society in 1914 is in no way comparable to today. We have come a long long way since then, and we still have a long long way to go. Cultivated men are still jerks today, as a general rule. It's just that we are too blind to see (just like Einstein was in his day) that. Give it until 2110 to tell you just how much. In 1914 it was totally normal for women not to have the vote, not to have a say…

Cultivated men are still jerks today, as a general rule.

Extraordinary claim. What evidence do you have for this one?

Re: Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife

#187

Post by mylittlepony »

bitwize wrote: post #168
toufka wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No he didn't. He understood the science - and wrote a highly-public letter to the president arguing it would be better for the US to build one than to have it dropped on them by the Germans - already at work. But he had no hand in building it. Keep in mind, Einstein would have been in his mid-60s during the war, and a German at that.

We'd call him a German. The Germans of the day, indubitably, would have called him a Jew. There's a reason why he moved to America...

He even became a citizen.

Re: Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife

#188

Post by jacquesm »

theorique wrote: post #186
jacquesm wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The position of women in society in 1914 is in no way comparable to today. We have come a long long way since then, and we still have a long long way to go. Cultivated men are still jerks today, as a general rule. It's just that we are too blind to see (just like Einstein was in his day) that. Give it until 2110 to tell you just how much. In 1914 it was totally normal for women not to have the vote, not to have a say…

Cultivated men are still jerks today, as a general rule. Extraordinary claim. What evidence do you have for this one?

> What evidence do you have for this one?

My eyes.

Re: Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife

#189

Post by aswanson »

majelix wrote: post #142
zerostar07 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget the balkans have been destroyed multiple times by nationalistic wars, most recently in the Former Yugoslavia, so nationalistic sentiments may be more prominent.

It tends to be more about ethnicity than nationalism per se, but yes. Your membership in the Albanian/Serb/Roma/Croat/etc. community is central to your personal identity in the Balkans, far outweighing where you happen to live or where you happen to spend your Sunday mornings/Friday afternoons. They're all interrelated though, so it gets complicated rather quickly. But yes: Serbs are proud to be Serbs.

You guys have got to chill out. You've got beautiful landscapes, mountains, ancient architecture there. Why focus on that divisive ethnic bs? Enjoy your area of the planet.

Re: Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife

#190

Post by jacquesm »

pretoriusB wrote: post #145
jacquesm wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn't a judgment per se, it is judging based on evidence ripped completely out of time and place. Context is missing here and without that context you really can't say at all whether this was either a jerk making demands or someone exhibiting the patience of a saint. Even with a biography as a guide you still can't make a call like that. The private affairs between two people are best left alone unless yo…

> The problem isn't a judgment per se, it is judging based on evidence ripped completely out of time and place. Context is missing here and without that context you really can't say at all whether this was either a jerk making demands or someone exhibiting the patience of a saint. You make it sound like some mysterious quantum dynamics problem. There is _already_ plenty of context for making a judgement call in this…

Read this thread and see how much misunderstanding there is. And that's people interacting in near real-time.

And those misunderstandings go unresolved, in spite of both parties trying hard.

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