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Your phone is about to stop being yours

keepandroidopen.org

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Re: Your phone is about to stop being yours

#181

Post by JoshTriplett »

akramachamarei wrote: post #150
JoshTriplett wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't buy the FUD claiming this is about "secure app management".

Just to play devils advocate, the petition is a bit of FUD too, no? I ask as an F-droid user and downloader of unofficial apks. Speaking purely from my own experience, all the side-loaded apps I care about are fungible; I could get them or similar quality equivalents from GPS. With the exception of a 4chan reader, that hasn't been hosted there and likely won't be. I don't mind the 1 day wait too much. I understand po…

> I don't mind the 1 day wait too much.

I do. It's my device. And I've been in the position of having to buy a replacement phone in a pinch; having to wait an extra day before having a usable replacement is not acceptable.

In terms of apps I might not be able to get from the Play store:

- Signal, depending on what country I'm in in the future and whether they've tried to restrict things they can't backdoor.

- Vanilla Music, which remains the best music player I've used. (I wish there were an Android version of Quod Libet.)

- A fully capable version of Termux. (the Play store currently has a less capable version that's maintained separately, which could go away if someone decides to stop putting up with it).

- Syncthing-Fork, which has at times been undermaintained in the Play store.

Re: Your phone is about to stop being yours

#182

Post by muwtyhg »

gslepak wrote: post #153
HWR_14 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there are two walled gardens, you might as well choose the prettier one.

Or choose freedom. I've been enjoying GrapheneOS for a couple of years now and recommend it.

Do you run into issues with apps not supporting it? Things like banking or auth? That is the main complaint I see for alternative phone OSes, and I don't know if that has gotten any better.

Re: Your phone is about to stop being yours

#184

Post by quantumleaper »

brandonhorst wrote: post #176
fainpul wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even after Google puts this crap in place, you can still uplodad your own apps to your own Android devices, using ADB. Doing the same for iOS, using Xcode, costs you USD 100 or more (depending on country) per year . I'm in no way defending Google here, just pointing out you're going from bad to worse and think it's a good thing.

This is not true, running your code on your phone with Xcode has always been free.

With a free account, it needs to be reinstalled every 7 days because the signature expires. It's hardly convenient for personal use.

Re: Your phone is about to stop being yours

#185

Post by unethical_ban »

jhanschoo wrote: post #151

My position regarding devices is that only 2 out of 3 should be satisfied: 1. Used as a proof of identity (for banks, govt services, etc.) 2. Is distributed to laypeople who have more pressing concerns in their lives than security. 3. Is an open platform where you can download apps arbitrarily from the Internet that can read your data and exfiltrate them to a malicious actor. The mainstream today chooses 1&2. Novelty…

I take issue with the idea that openness and freedom to install arbitrary software cannot occur without strong safety mechanisms. Android/GrapheneOS/iOS have sandboxing and permissions systems that put most desktop OSes to shame. The base platform can control apps' access to every resource, and an app store can put its own caveats and reminders to users for what kind of access is needed for the functions of a given app.

Re: Your phone is about to stop being yours

#187

Post by JoshTriplett »

criddell wrote: post #139
rcxdude wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The openness of Android also acts as a check of sorts on how restrictive the walled garden can get. If google were to clamp down on useful functionality in the play store, then you could always install apks yourself. But if the latter is no longer an option, then there's much more temptation to google for the former.

I get the feeling that clamping down on useful functionality is often an unfortunate side-effect of closing down paths that are being exploited by criminals to harm users. What should Google do when a change they are making to protect regular less-technical users breaks functionality needed by more advanced users?

> What should Google do when a change they are making to protect regular less-technical users breaks functionality needed by more advanced users?

Have people read and type in a message saying "I'm not on the phone with a potential scammer who is trying to get me to install a package that may be dangerous", trust people to actually read what they're typing, and if they can't read and comprehend that, stop getting in the way of them shooting themselves in the foot.

Re: Your phone is about to stop being yours

#188

Post by unethical_ban »

anonymousiam wrote: post #145
Anonyneko wrote: post #133

I've resigned to the fact that I'll need to use two phones, one with locked down Android/iOS for banking applications and government services (those require strong bank ID around these parts), another with some kind of a Linux or unlocked Android for literally everything else. Oh well, such is life, most people don't care enough about this to pressure Google/Apple/banks/governments into yielding. A big reason why a n…

In my informed opinion, anybody who does banking on their phone is taking a big and unnecessary risk. I wish I could say more.

I see you suggest you can't say more, but I'll still ask the questions:

Is it a privacy or financial risk to have banking on your phone?

How is banking on a phone app more dangerous than banking via mobile or desktop websites?

Re: Your phone is about to stop being yours

#189

Post by lynndotpy »

criddell wrote: post #61
NDlurker wrote: post #30

>Android's openness was never just a feature. It was the promise that distinguished it from iPhone. Millions chose Android for exactly that reason. Google is now revoking that promise unilaterally, on devices already in people's pockets, because they've decided they have enough market dominance and regulatory capture to get away with it. This is why I've stuck with Android for the past 15 years.

For you, is the openness of Android appealing as a matter of principle or does it enable you to do things you couldn't otherwise do?

I used to build custom apps for my Android all the time, install APKs, transfer files over USB, use USB tethering on my Linux computer, torrent, use a mouse and keyboard (I think iOS can do this now though), use the integrated terminal, etc.

A few years ago, iOS lacked basic features like widgets, NFC, calculator on their tablets, etc. And iOS still has a completely inferior keyboard (I used to write code and essays on my Android while walking) and a completely inferior notification system. Androids are also the only phones still offering a fingerprint scanner, which is way better for me. These nice things all combine well with the oppenness.

What's worse is that we're clearly in a progression of restriction. Bootloader restrictions, app installation restrictions, "age verification" requirements, etc. Openness is being locked down from every angle with serious momentum, it's not anticipated to stop here.

Re: Your phone is about to stop being yours

#190

Post by Cider9986 »

akramachamarei wrote: post #150
JoshTriplett wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't buy the FUD claiming this is about "secure app management".

Just to play devils advocate, the petition is a bit of FUD too, no? I ask as an F-droid user and downloader of unofficial apks. Speaking purely from my own experience, all the side-loaded apps I care about are fungible; I could get them or similar quality equivalents from GPS. With the exception of a 4chan reader, that hasn't been hosted there and likely won't be. I don't mind the 1 day wait too much. I understand po…

The problem is the slipper slope. If we let Google get away with this, it will only get worse.

Just see the Play Integrity API making the user experience more difficult on more secure devices like GOS with mo security benefit.

>Play Integrity permits a device with years of missing security patches. It isn't a legitimate security feature. It checks for a device in compliance with Google's Android business model, not security.

(https://xcancel.com/GrapheneOS/status/2036610983888588818#m)

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