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Kagi releases alpha version of Orion for Linux

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Re: Kagi releases alpha version of Orion for Linux

#181

Post by 76SlashDolphin »

IgorPartola wrote: post #51
Zambyte wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or even better, a computer that does things when told.

If you can tell me what phone can give me access to all the standard apps I would need, has good build quality, doesn’t funnel my data to Google, is backed by an entity capable of providing multi-year device support, has cloud storage integration that lets me keep my data securely offloaded from the phone’s storage, can handle modern apps and websites as far as performance, has a very good camera, and has the equival…

I have a Pixel 8 running GrapheneOS and it does most of the above: - slightly lesser build quality than my iPhone 15 Pro but comparable - doesn't funnel data to Google unless you explicitly let it, you can circumvent a lot of the Google Play stuff by restricting permissions and using Aurora Store - is backed by, well, Google and the Graphene team porting over security updated. They have a fairly good track record by now. - can use any of the N backup services that already exist unlike the iPhone's silly restriction on background apps - don't notice performance differences between it and my iPhone 15 Pro in day to day use. If anything, biometrics are way faster on the Pixel since iOS 26 made FaceID slow as molasses for me - the default camera is pretty good (uses all the Pixel fancy processing hardware) but if it's not good enough you can just install the stock Google camera which works fine. You can turn off network access if you don't want it snooping. Photos are neck and neck with the iPhone but the iPhone is way better at videos, no Android phone has cracked that yet IMO. - Yeah, but no other brand can give you an AppleCare experience. Best option is phone insurance and just getting a new Pixel if that happens. Graphene can do full device backups via Seedvault and it's not that much more of a pain to restore compared to an iPhone backup. Granted, it's jankier but it's not impossible. The other issue is that Pixels are not a thing in a lot of countries, Apple really has the edge here but I'd take that risk over the UX shenanigans they pull nowadays with their latest updates (god is it awful)

Re: Kagi releases alpha version of Orion for Linux

#183

Post by tempest_ »

Phelinofist wrote: post #103
jlarocco wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FF and Chromium are controlled by the biggest advertising company on the internet, while Orion is developed by a privacy focused search engine.

But isn't it basically also just a rebranded Chromium clone, thus still heavily depended on G?

No, it is not.

It uses webkit, which is what Blink was forked from but likely has more in common with Safari at this point.

Re: Kagi releases alpha version of Orion for Linux

#184

Post by yencabulator »

Fiveplus wrote: post #83
jwcooper wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The sticking point like always will be media playback (read: DRM/widevine). That is the graveyard where Linux browsers go to die. If Kagi can legally and technically solve the widevine integration on a non-standard Linux webkit build, they win. If not, it will be a secondary browser for documentation reading only. I'm hopeful that some day Linux will have enough users where the media companies can't ignore them. Ho…

Hmm good point. The issue is also the distinction between widevine L1, i.e hardware-backed DRM and L3 (the software backed one). Correct me if I'm wrong but to stream 4K, studios require a hardware root of trust and a verified media path. They need a guarantee that the video frames are decrypted inside a trusted execution environment and sent directly to the display without the OS kernel or user space being able to r…

> They need a guarantee

s/need/want/ but yes.

Re: Kagi releases alpha version of Orion for Linux

#185

Post by least »

lordhexd wrote: post #180
0x1ch wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it strange because it seems to me that outside of their bread and butter products (Kagi Search, Assistant), there really isn't a business secret or proprietary technology to keep secret no? Perhaps integrated browser LLM tooling they don't want to give out for free.

Not too much speculation needed as to why: data collection which is then used to enhance both their Search and Assistant products + they can easily start pushing their search and assistant through the platform once adoption is high enough and people who are used to Orion will more easily be convinced to just fork up a little money for continued or slightly improved features/access

It's more likely it has to do with all the work they're doing to getting the WebExtension API to work with WebKit which is a main selling feature for the MacOS version - using firefox and chrome extensions in a webkit-powered browser.

Re: Kagi releases alpha version of Orion for Linux

#186

Post by sxg »

radlad wrote: post #118
mikae1 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Webkit on Linux has essentially been relegated to embedded devices or the GNOME epiphany browser Don't forget about https://falkon.org . It's a browser I enjoy using. WebExtension support will be big if it lands in Orion though. EDIT: apparently Orion is not open source. Not particularly interested in a closed source browser, TBH. In 2022 they said they plan to open source "when there is merit"[1], whatever that me…

As a Kagi user for years now, I am very interested in a Firefox/Chrome competitor but I will absolutely not use Orion until it is open source.

Just curious: what browser do you currently use? Firefox, Zen?

Re: Kagi releases alpha version of Orion for Linux

#187

Post by JohnFen »

freediver wrote: post #115
JohnFen wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Requiring it to be open source is not just about trusting the publisher. There are a bunch of other possible reasons, including wanting to support open source as a counterbalance to proprietary software. For me, it's a big deal (although not a dealbreaker) for that reason. If I have the option of two different pieces of software, one being open source and the other proprietary, I'll choose the open source one every t…

Side thought: nobody's ever asked us to open source Kagi Search. Curious why the expectation differs.

Because Kagi Search is a service I subscribe to. A browser is a program I install. That difference means everything.

But since I have your attention, I just want to add that I'm a huge fan of Kagi Search and it's well worth the money I spend for it. I love the work you guys are doing, and that love is the reason why I'm even thinking about using Orion. But they are two entirely different use cases.

Re: Kagi releases alpha version of Orion for Linux

#188

Post by doublerabbit »

michaelmrose wrote: post #168
doublerabbit wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are already paying for the streaming service that offers the content and they restrict you from watching because of your OS are you harming the industry by downloading it? Nothing is stopping you from buying a 4k webcam and recording your computer monitor. You're already paying the monthly fee to stream it, you're just streaming it in a more friendly way. Granted if you cancel the service, you should delete th…

a 4K webcam recording of a screen will produce a trash copy that isn't notably better than ripping off the 720p you can already screen record.

Figure of speech.

Re: Kagi releases alpha version of Orion for Linux

#189

Post by kuon »

freediver wrote: post #92
hellcow wrote: post #9

It seems weird to run a closed-source browser on an open-source operating system when so many open alternatives exist—I certainly wouldn’t do it, and I’m a Kagi customer. Does Kagi plan to open-source Orion on Linux?

Kagi founder here. Orion isn't open source yet primarily because we're a 5-person team that spent 6+ years building this and created significant IP doing so, and we're not in a position to defend our work against a well-funded company using it as a base (we care very much about the business model of the browser surviving). Restrictive licenses help in theory but enforcing them against a company with a larger legal bu…

I'm a kagi user, and as many have said, I will not use Orion until it is open sourced.

I understand your position, but a web browser is so important a software that it must be open.

I also think that you can still sell it even if it is open source.

Also, you might be able to secure funding from governments that want to move away from closed source solutions.

Anyway, still congratulation for v 1.0, and I hope it will go well.

Re: Kagi releases alpha version of Orion for Linux

#190

Post by cosmic_cheese »

I think this is great. True native Linux-first power user browsers are nearly an entirely unserved niche. We've had them on macOS in various forms over the years (with OmniWeb being the original), but for a long time the only browsers built to integrate well with Linux desktops were minimal and light on features (like the WebKit version of GNOME Web/Epiphany).

It probably matters less to Linux users who do the minimal tiling WM thing, but as someone more drawn to traditional floating DEs it's always bothered me how alien the browsers one might actually want to use feel running in a GTK or Qt DE. Themes can help reduce the gap, but it never disappears — that last 10-20% always remains as an unavoidable side effect of how the big browsers are built, with it being particularly pronounced with Firefox and derivatives.

Of course a GTK based browser like Orion isn't going to feel the best under a Qt desktop like KDE, but GTK themed to match Plasma is a good deal closer than the bespoke UI found in e.g. Firefox or Chrome.

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