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I forced every engineer to take sales calls and they rewrote our platform

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Re: I forced every engineer to take sales calls and they rewrote our platform

#181
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of product managers have never studied product development. You'll find philosophers, designers, physicists, even musicians in the role. Many have great people skills, but little understanding of customer service, building products, or scaling a business. And funnily enough, those are all real careers and degrees. The result, which you often see in companies with 300+ employees, is that engineers have far more e…

I support every single word of this comment. Good product managers are unicorn masters of discovery and delivery who are so rare that they climb up quickly in corporate hierarchy to strategic positions leaving holes in product operations. I have seen products running A/B tests without understanding how they work, designing UI sketches without any knowledge of UX, pushing features to roadmap based on a feedback of a s…

I think the role of Product Manager should be renamed Customer Manager to avoid confusion and conflicts of interest. Some companies like Airbnb tried switching to Program Manager, but that only adds to the confusion.

Right now, the Product Manager is seen as the CEO's delegate, making sure the product follows business strategy, while the Engineering Manager is the CTO's delegate, making sure the product follows technical strategy. One represents business the other represents technology. But IMO since both are building the product together, the title Product Manager creates competition instead of collaboration.

The software needs the customer just as much as the customer needs the software. That's why I think the roles of Engineering Manager and Customer Manager make more sense, working together to build the best product possible. The product isn't managed by one side, it's managed by both.

However, the real problem isn't the role title, it's the qualifications of the person in the role. Companies don't hire lawyers as Engineering Managers, so why do they hire musicians as Product Managers?

Re: I forced every engineer to take sales calls and they rewrote our platform

#182

> At the end of it, they were sketching a completely different architecture without my "PMing". Because they finally understood who was actually using our product. I cannot help but read this whole experience as: “We forced an engineer to take sales calls and we found out that the issue was that our PMs are doing a terrible job communicating between customer and engineering, and our DevOps engineer is more capable/ac…

The first rule of Hacker News comments is it's never the engineer's fault

Re: I forced every engineer to take sales calls and they rewrote our platform

#183

> At the end of it, they were sketching a completely different architecture without my "PMing". Because they finally understood who was actually using our product. I cannot help but read this whole experience as: “We forced an engineer to take sales calls and we found out that the issue was that our PMs are doing a terrible job communicating between customer and engineering, and our DevOps engineer is more capable/ac…

Yes, even OP admits it in a comment down the thread:

> Commenter: Sounds like you have no product managers [...]

> OP: haha we don't :) we pride ourselves in not hiring any product folks until after we raised our series A. this helped us stay super lean, move fast, and build exactly what our customers want. our platform is definitely not dead simple. but in the early early days, we did rebuild our product 3 times and the 3rd rewrite scaled us to where we are now

Re: I forced every engineer to take sales calls and they rewrote our platform

#184

> At the end of it, they were sketching a completely different architecture without my "PMing". Because they finally understood who was actually using our product. I cannot help but read this whole experience as: “We forced an engineer to take sales calls and we found out that the issue was that our PMs are doing a terrible job communicating between customer and engineering, and our DevOps engineer is more capable/ac…

[deleted]

Re: I forced every engineer to take sales calls and they rewrote our platform

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or engineers are little bit full of themselves and know better how user should experience the product. If user is "holding the product wrong" it is a problem of a user and not a problem of stupid design, created by a person who knows in which order these buttons should be pressed. People around Desktop Linux could write a complete book about dismissing user's complaints. The moment you have stubborn engineer who know…

God forbid an engineer should have an opinion on UI/UX.

Isn't that the same as UI/UX people being generally clueless about how to build applications for the very platform for which they are designing? Designers and product managers constantly have to be guided about the logical and the structural constraints of their target platforms, to be given workarounds, to be taught how to logically divide their reusable components so that they can build their dream design system which, by the way, always fights the platform's native design system.

It's totally fine to have an opinion on UI/UX if it is informed by cognitive psychology and other relevant HCI subfields, in the same way that it's OK for UI/UX to push for designs so long as they are also informed by business and engineering.

Re: I forced every engineer to take sales calls and they rewrote our platform

#186
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of product managers have never studied product development. You'll find philosophers, designers, physicists, even musicians in the role. Many have great people skills, but little understanding of customer service, building products, or scaling a business. And funnily enough, those are all real careers and degrees. The result, which you often see in companies with 300+ employees, is that engineers have far more e…

I support every single word of this comment. Good product managers are unicorn masters of discovery and delivery who are so rare that they climb up quickly in corporate hierarchy to strategic positions leaving holes in product operations. I have seen products running A/B tests without understanding how they work, designing UI sketches without any knowledge of UX, pushing features to roadmap based on a feedback of a s…

I have worked with so so many ineffective product managers. The good ones are indeed unicorns.

Even when you have good ones, they can't scale up to all of the things that I'd want them to own, meaning that engineering fills a lot of gaps.

This ends up being uncomfortable and necessary. I'm still learning how to make it work.

Re: I forced every engineer to take sales calls and they rewrote our platform

#188
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two separate problems, and they aren't mutually exclusive, but this post seems to be specifically about the latter case (if one believes the story, of course): - The PM(s) are bad at listening to customers or turning customer feedback into a focused set of requirements. - The engineer(s) are bad at following the requirements or going back to the PM(s) when the requirements aren't clear. In the first the PM(…

Lots of product managers have never studied product development. You'll find philosophers, designers, physicists, even musicians in the role. Many have great people skills, but little understanding of customer service, building products, or scaling a business. And funnily enough, those are all real careers and degrees. The result, which you often see in companies with 300+ employees, is that engineers have far more e…

Would also be really nice if companies selected CEOs with a deep understanding of the core business.

Re: I forced every engineer to take sales calls and they rewrote our platform

#189
post #19

All the negative responses. I have been at countless places where the engineers are out of sync with the product. And it might be something silly like their coworker added something they didn't know about and the UI is now confusing. Could even be the website started proclaiming something that didn't align well with the product. Another factor is that the [product -> PM -> bug system -> engineer -> fix -> QA -> produ…

> I have been at countless places where the engineers are out of sync with the product. Me too, but surprisingly it happens more often at places with the most Product Managers. My worst experience was at a company that tried to enforce a specific ratio of Product Managers and "Product Designers" to engineers. If you added up the designers, product, project, and program people the total was higher than the number of e…

100%, my current team could benefit from a strong technical PM, but the risk of negative impact from a poor PM - and the 10:1 ratio you see of bad-to-good PMs in the wild - has me pushing back against hiring one. The risk isn't worth the reward.

Re: I forced every engineer to take sales calls and they rewrote our platform

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perverse incentives. They are judged by how long the call takes, and every time they escalate a common problem that the devs could fix, now their numbers will go down and they'll get punished for their good work. Dell at one point pulled the plug on outsourcing their tech support. They spotted this moral hazard partway through the process and decided it was better to keep it in house.

On the opposite side of moral hazard, early in my career I worked for a large web security company in tech support. We were not permitted to escalate to engineering at all. Often this meant the only solution was to apply our own, unofficial code changes!

> We were not permitted to escalate to engineering at all.

I have no words! Except that I really want to know the organizational dysfunction that ended up creating that policy.

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