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I forced every engineer to take sales calls and they rewrote our platform

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Re: I forced every engineer to take sales calls and they rewrote our platform

#91
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But is it an informed opinion? Every human has an opinion on practically everything. But has that human put in the effort to justify pushing that specific opinion? In this case, is the opinionated engineer humble enough to realize that using software in their day to day life does not equal using software in our customer's context?

If I use the product, I'd expect that feedback to get the same weight as any other customer. And not be dismissed because it came from a 'technical' person.

Using? Are you paying?

Re: I forced every engineer to take sales calls and they rewrote our platform

#92

> At the end of it, they were sketching a completely different architecture without my "PMing". Because they finally understood who was actually using our product. I cannot help but read this whole experience as: “We forced an engineer to take sales calls and we found out that the issue was that our PMs are doing a terrible job communicating between customer and engineering, and our DevOps engineer is more capable/ac…

Sadly, I've seen a significant number of engineers who simply don't trust what PM's say about what the customers need. They think PM's don't provide value, so they ignore what PM's say. It's only when they hear from customers directly that they go... oh, so these needs are real? I thought it was just PM bullshit. In a healthy workplace this doesn't happen. But sometimes engineers need to talk to customers to trust th…

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Re: I forced every engineer to take sales calls and they rewrote our platform

#93
post #83
post #68

> The rewrite took 2 weeks. We removed 60% of features. Added a simple progress bar. Built Slack integration for questions. Created "done-for-you" workflows. > Our support tickets dropped 70%. If this isn't fake something is extremely wrong with this picture.

It sounds like it's a B2B SaaS product that's gone through multiple pivots with very weak guidance on product on every step. Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but it's a very common way for things to go wrong.

There's just something about the specifics that seems really odd to me. "60% of features"... really? Sixty percent, specifically? Like I think this story is maybe based on some series of events at a SaaS and I agree with you in principle but it seems like the author ran it through a Linkedin thought leader LLM.

Re: I forced every engineer to take sales calls and they rewrote our platform

#94
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

God forbid an engineer should have an opinion on UI/UX.

But is it an informed opinion? Every human has an opinion on practically everything. But has that human put in the effort to justify pushing that specific opinion? In this case, is the opinionated engineer humble enough to realize that using software in their day to day life does not equal using software in our customer's context?

The issue is that software engineers most often strike a balance between passive aggressive and overly opinionated... Its a shit mix if you ask me- very frustrating personality to work with.

Re: I forced every engineer to take sales calls and they rewrote our platform

#95
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming your PM is for product manager not project manager. I would think the engineers usually get their kick out of making things fast or easy to maintain. If you have a product manager and the customers hate the product, how is that the engineers fault? I've built a couple useless features that I wouldn't want to use and couldn't explain how to use. But if you have a product person, they get to design is BECAUSE…

There are two separate problems, and they aren't mutually exclusive, but this post seems to be specifically about the latter case (if one believes the story, of course): - The PM(s) are bad at listening to customers or turning customer feedback into a focused set of requirements. - The engineer(s) are bad at following the requirements or going back to the PM(s) when the requirements aren't clear. In the first the PM(…

Lots of product managers have never studied product development. You'll find philosophers, designers, physicists, even musicians in the role. Many have great people skills, but little understanding of customer service, building products, or scaling a business. And funnily enough, those are all real careers and degrees.

The result, which you often see in companies with 300+ employees, is that engineers have far more experience building products than their PMs, what engineers usually lack is knowledge of the customer and their pain points, and a roadmap that leads to successful outcomes. In other words: a real product manager.

It's not enough for PMs to throw around cliches like "I represent the customer" or "the product has to be built around customer needs" if they don't understand how to actually build and ship software.

Last year I dug into this and found it's not unusual. Many software companies hire smart people as CPO, Product Director, or Head of Product because they have leadership skills, people skills, and some knowledge of the industry. But most have little to no background in business, marketing, economics, or product development. Some companies go even further and promote an engineer with project management experience to Head of Product. And, of course, people in those roles tend to hire others who look like them, with similar experience. One day their CEO realiseS their product isn't selling, customers aren't happy, or engineers are left to figure out what to build.

To put it in perspective, imagine a company making a lawyer their Engineering Manager and asking them to build an engineering team. What are the chances they'd do better than a computer scientist or an actual engineer? Pretty slim. Sure, there are exceptions, but what usually happens is their engineers aren't motivated and complain about the lack of coaching, vision, purpose, and the poor quality of their tools, processes, code, and work environment.

Bottom line: companies need to audit product leadership roles as a priority and figure out who's really in charge of the product. Run an internal survey to check whether your CPO, Director, Head of Product, and Product Managers have studied business or have actual expertise in it. If not, you're in trouble.

Re: I forced every engineer to take sales calls and they rewrote our platform

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I use the product, I'd expect that feedback to get the same weight as any other customer. And not be dismissed because it came from a 'technical' person.

Using? Are you paying?

If you're building a website that is accessible to the public at no cost, I don't see the distinction.

Re: I forced every engineer to take sales calls and they rewrote our platform

#97

we've done this before, either with sales or support calls for the product. customer interaction is good, and can lead to good things. but it also leads to things that are heavily focused on the needs of one customer or one point in time. most of the stuff i've built as a direct result of customer interaction has been later deleted, as it becomes a maintenance burden with limited utility even for the customers who in…

"does anyone use this?" is a running joke where I work because we always say yes to a feature request, most of them get used briefly by one customer, then we have to maintain/test forever just in case

Re: I forced every engineer to take sales calls and they rewrote our platform

#98
OK, but do the actual sales people like to use the workflow that an engineer likes?

Just because as an engineer I might try to be the end user, in order to design a UX to solve a problem, doesn't mean that the people who aren't engineers who will ultimately be using the UX for sales will actually like the workflow an engineer likes.

If anything I have found from experience that what an engineer finds intuitive and fluid is not the same thing that most non-engineers find intuitive or fluid.

Re: I forced every engineer to take sales calls and they rewrote our platform

#99
post #42

As an engineer, there's only one reason I don't want to be on customer calls: Once a customer knows the person who actually builds the product, they will short cut: - Customer Service - Product Management - Any other sane defenses you put in to protect a developer's time. And just contact me directly. Then what do I do to get them off of me without losing a customer? ... That is why engineers don't get on support cal…

And from experience, customer requests will not only be pushy and aggressive, but often at odds with company policy and directions. If they have a direct way to contact, one may end up not being able to do one's job due to the interruptions.

Re: I forced every engineer to take sales calls and they rewrote our platform

#100
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

God forbid an engineer should have an opinion on UI/UX.

But is it an informed opinion? Every human has an opinion on practically everything. But has that human put in the effort to justify pushing that specific opinion? In this case, is the opinionated engineer humble enough to realize that using software in their day to day life does not equal using software in our customer's context?

Ultimately, you need to decide who your target user is. Do you want to cater to the lowest common denominator, or do you want to want to make something power users can customize to fit their workflow?

Neither answer is necessarily wrong, you just need to make a choice.

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