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More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

novonordiskfonden.dk

181–190 of 231 posts

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#181

Very interesting. Relates to conversations I've had recently regarding trans people in sports. Turns out that conversation isn't simple, because gender is way more complex than the binary M/F options society has tried to act like it is. Between reasons like in this article, or being born intersex, etc, there are definitely people with female chromosomes who have competed in men's sports, or people with female sex org…

> Very interesting. Relates to conversations I've had recently regarding trans people in sports. Turns out that conversation isn't simple, because gender is way more complex than the binary M/F options society has tried to act like it is.

Using the word “gender” to refer to the concepts of both “reproductive sex” (chromosomes, gametes, genitals) and also “gender” (socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and expectations associated with femininity and masculinity) certainly makes it very complex to reason about and discuss, particularly if it feels socially distasteful to separate the two.

Without getting the soapbox out, it seems to me that there’s an infinite number of possible “genders” as each unique individual can construct whatever permutation of supposedly feminine and masculine coded things that suits them. But broadly speaking, there are two sexes - the one that went down the developmental pathway to produce and ejaculate semen, and the one that went down the pathway to be able to ovulate, incubate fertilised eggs, give birth and nurse with milk.

So in considering sport, given the physiological consequences of reproductive role causes female performance to be on average significantly lower than for males, does it make sense for sporting categories to be gendered (how people look or act) or sexed (how people are constructed)?

There’s a inclusivity argument for “yes” from the point of view of the interests of one group (transgender people), but it seems to come at the cost of preventing female athletes from doing anything other than merely participating in many competitions, rather than being able to win them.

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First because there is absolutely no objective way to define races in their coloquial meaning. So they don't exist. The only race we can truly define is homo sapiens sapiens.

> because there is absolutely no objective way to define races in their coloquial meaning. So they don't exist. This is a pretty controversial statement. Even studied anthropologists disagree with this.

Only in the sense that race is a type of caste system. There's really no biological reality to it.

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#183

Very interesting. Relates to conversations I've had recently regarding trans people in sports. Turns out that conversation isn't simple, because gender is way more complex than the binary M/F options society has tried to act like it is. Between reasons like in this article, or being born intersex, etc, there are definitely people with female chromosomes who have competed in men's sports, or people with female sex org…

The important thing to recognize is that fairness is a pretty fuzzy concept and a lot of the boundary between fair and unfair is defined by particular societal norms (socially constructed, if you will). All elite athletes have biological advantages not afforded to ordinary humans like us. People like Michael Phelps and Alex Honnold are specific examples of course, but even after years of training most people cannot p…

> All elite athletes have biological advantages not afforded to ordinary humans like us.

Sure. Meanwhile there's no athletic record of anyone identified as a woman cracking the four minute mile.

Not long after Roger Bannister, teenage boys started doing it. It's not unusual for sub 4 miles to be run by boys at high school track meets.

Elite capability does not erase or conceal sex-related gaps. We have male and female divisions at all levels of sport for a reason.

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#185
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can compare the world records of female athletes and male athletes in almost every sport and see that really this is an empirical observation. To use one of your examples: Michael Phelps has at this point had his records beaten by a number of other male swimmers. But no female swimmer has come close. Not even Katie Ledecky.

Sure, but how big is the total pool of female swimmers? If we assume that ability to swim (within a sex, for the sake of argument) follows a normal distribution, the denominator of "people that gave swimming a real try" is going to have a direct relationship with the capabilities of the best ever to try. This is completely ignoring funding, encouragement, and access, and strictly discussing the sheer number of women…

It is easy to control for that, just look at the best man from a very small population.

For example, the fastest male swimmers in Iceland are still much faster than the fastest female swimmers in the world, and Iceland has 10 000 times less people than the world.

There aren't 10 000 times more men trying to become elite swimmers than women.

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really trying to believe you're coming from a good place here, but man, this really looks like a spectacular lack of empathy. Not everybody is like you. Try to look at it from the point of view of another human being, rather than imagining something happening to you. It's not about you.

>this really looks like a spectacular lack of empathy No, fake kindness isn't empathy. This wasn't about me. Everybody is actually exactly the same in that we all should care about our bodies, nobody should care about the biochemical details of their genes. That doesn't change your body or your personality. Affirming someone's mistaken identity crisis because you want to show the world how nice you are is actually th…

Oh, this is just egocentrism then - then inability to see things from the point of view of another. Everybody is actually not exactly the same as you, as surprising as that apparently will be.

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who felt this intention? God?

I'm referring to how genes modulate development according to their set of instructions. The way that these genetic instructions are set to be executed can be considered their intention. I'm being liberal in my use of the word "intention" here, but I don't think your absurdist take on my wording was in good faith, so to speak, or constructive.

The state of the universe (including biological facts) has no intentions, i don't know what you are trying to say here or what else you would mean when you say "Intention". It sounds like the sayings of someone who believes in an higher order of things.

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm referring to how genes modulate development according to their set of instructions. The way that these genetic instructions are set to be executed can be considered their intention. I'm being liberal in my use of the word "intention" here, but I don't think your absurdist take on my wording was in good faith, so to speak, or constructive.

The state of the universe (including biological facts) has no intentions, i don't know what you are trying to say here or what else you would mean when you say "Intention". It sounds like the sayings of someone who believes in an higher order of things.

Once again, this absurdist interpretation of what I spelled out, based on taking one word out of context, is in bad faith.

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#189
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The important thing to recognize is that fairness is a pretty fuzzy concept and a lot of the boundary between fair and unfair is defined by particular societal norms (socially constructed, if you will). All elite athletes have biological advantages not afforded to ordinary humans like us. People like Michael Phelps and Alex Honnold are specific examples of course, but even after years of training most people cannot p…

Absolutely lots of factors actually influence competitive advantage and it's arbitrary which ones we decide to use to group competitors! I think a helpful reframing is to note that some sports do segregate by factors other than sex, generally bodyweight. If boxing, wrestling, judo, weightlifting etc all benefit from weight classes so that we can have more fair competitions among competitors in comparable weight bands…

> What if every marathoner was still trying to get the best time achievable, but we celebrated the person who most out-performed expectations?

This is basically how golf works, right?

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The state of the universe (including biological facts) has no intentions, i don't know what you are trying to say here or what else you would mean when you say "Intention". It sounds like the sayings of someone who believes in an higher order of things.

Once again, this absurdist interpretation of what I spelled out, based on taking one word out of context, is in bad faith.

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