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Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

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Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#181
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure mate, but I guess I'll stick to X if it works, I don't care who's fault is it, nvidia's or wayland's. Life is too short to have a crashing UI interrupt my work.

End of the day people buy Nvidia because they need to (CUDA/AI/ML) not because of ideology or driver architecture. Shit just needs to work and bottom line is no matter who's to blame, Wayland doesn't work for every use case that X does.

I want to emphasize again that most people at this point don't have a problem running Sway on Nvidia. It's been working adequately for years, stably. In the past ~18 months especially, Nvidia seems to have been updating their closed source drivers much more actively as well, which is positive to see. As far as I know, the top poster having issues has taken no steps to report the issue, send coredumps, do any follow up on their issue.

I can't emphasize enough how gross this mercenary position is though. X developers were fed up, en masse. The whole project had thoroughly rotted, was unsustainable, had no path forwards to use modern video techniques. It sort of works, but also, it's insecure as hell, and a terrible leaky foundation. We get to claim where politically we are in the axis: are we going to be conservative people, who resist and are afraid of change forever? Or will we have hope and excitement at progress and hope for better futures? Doing nothing and investing nothing and only having a "shit just needs to work" is a refusal to inform yourself, one that makes you quite conservative. There's reasons to be in that camp, and especially for less open-source more consumeristic people who owing to the conditions of their environment have a very strong trained helplessness where there's no sense contemplating alternatives since your hands are tied anyways. But I find it repulsive & immature to be so short, so anti-informed, so un-nuanced, and hopeless and lacking ambition.

As ever, Yegge's Notes from the Mystery Machine Bus, on the political axis of technologies, https://gist.github.com/cornchz/3313150

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meh. I don't care about the details of why it won't work, I'll just keep using the product that does work. The number of paragraphs used to explain why the non-working product does not work would be better spent simply pointing people to the working product.

I mean, yeah, Nvidia being fundamentally incompatible with open source ecosystems, not having drivers, and having stuff broken sucks and while I think it's pretty pathetic and low-life to not care and not think about that in any way at all, I get that folks are going to stay on X because Nvidia refuses to work with open source. That said, I do think the parent post is probably experiencing a very very rare issue. The…

> I think it's pretty pathetic and low-life to not care and not think about that in any way at all,

Was this part really necessary? The people who care more about working software are pathetic and lowlife? Really?

> I get that folks are going to stay on X because Nvidia refuses to work with open source.

I dunno if you've noticed, but there are one or two other dealbreakers that keep people off of Wayland.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#183
post #136
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All I did was share work You may not have political opinions but you took political action....

Yeah, it baffles me how people don't realize that.

I understand

Politics is "dirty", understandably. But people are mostly decent.

It is the evil powerful hideous people that make politics dirty and life bad

So acting as a decent considerate, loving even, person becomes a political act

Not good, things could be better, but it is what it is

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#184

I get it about Wayland. Most of X is legacy cruft and even isolating that into XWayland or whatever it's called for backwards compatibility is better than having it front and center. But yes, there are use cases it doesn't cover. Example. My elderly mom uses Linux laptops that I've rigged to (1) always have an SSH connection open to my server machine, with reverse tunnels, and (2) run x0vncserver. Modern security peo…

If you already don't care about security, whats stopping you from running 10 year old software and never updating it? Its not like Wayland is going to ruin your older software and hardware. I don't get why its such a big deal that software that: 1. no one wants to develop 2. is completely free 3. no longer being developed is such a problem, its free. if its so important to you, why not contribute yourself? Should the…

I think laziness is the most common reason. They want their distro/WM/DE/apps/etc. to not drop Xorg so that they can continue using their system the way they want.

And if push came to shove, they'd probably just live without it if they couldn't keep being lazy about it.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#185
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wayland is fundamentally broken in many ways down at the architectural level, but the sunk cost fallacy keeps them working on it. > Everybody forgets that Wayland predates Vulkan. A "real" replacement for X11/Wayland probably needs to restart from "Vulkan support is the base layer" and build up from there. I wonder if you could point me in the right direction to learn more about this?

Erm, what do you want to learn? Wayland dates to 2008--Vulkan dates to 2016. That's an EON in tech. Wayland chose "we will control the compositing to avoid all tearing". This is suboptimal nowadays with monitors with multiple refresh rates some of which are on completely different graphics cards. It's better to let an application have a Vulkan (or equivalent) surface, draw to it, query, and choose its own linkage to…

> Vulkan can be substituted with Direct12 or Metal which are effectively the exact same graphics API

Just for clarity, have they actually converged to the point where the APIs are that similar? Or do you just mean they fill the same role?

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#186
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd expect that the changes would've been reverted sooner if that was all there was to it, no? How come they're suddenly a problem? that was my first thought too. if these commits were a problem they should not have been accepted in the first place. was there no review process in place? and if there was no review, isn't that a sign that the project is dead? and if the project is dead what's with the sudden activity…

AFAICT they were reviewed, but too leniently in light of his "improve the codebase" rhetoric. His recent drama and stirring has brought eyes from more senior members of the team, which realized his work was shotty and several changes being made were outright wrong or caused new bugs. More info here: https://www.phoronix.com/news/X.Org-Server-Lots-Of-Reverts

His recent drama and stirring has brought eyes from more senior members of the team

that's what's bothering me. because someone misbehaves suddenly everything this person does receives more scrutiny. it should have received that scrutiny from the beginning. as should every other PR. the behavior or the character of a person should not affect how critical i review their code. that's discrimination. if this was a woman this reaction would be considered sexist.

if the reason was that people actually reported issues and those issues would point to one persons submissions so that a track record of bad submissions builds up then it would be reasonable to wonder what else did this person do wrong. but drama and stirring is not a good reason to suddenly question someones ability as a coder.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#187
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erm, what do you want to learn? Wayland dates to 2008--Vulkan dates to 2016. That's an EON in tech. Wayland chose "we will control the compositing to avoid all tearing". This is suboptimal nowadays with monitors with multiple refresh rates some of which are on completely different graphics cards. It's better to let an application have a Vulkan (or equivalent) surface, draw to it, query, and choose its own linkage to…

> Vulkan can be substituted with Direct12 or Metal which are effectively the exact same graphics API Just for clarity, have they actually converged to the point where the APIs are that similar? Or do you just mean they fill the same role?

They have converged to the point that the APIs are extremely similar. To the point that you can add a translation layer from Vulkan to Metal (MoltenVK) and lose very little performance, for example.

The concurrency primitives are very similar. The way they all manage memory is a little different, but not horribly so.

And now that DirectX and Vulkan are both supporting SPIR-V as the shader intermediate format, things really have converged.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#188
post #168
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so it's easy for either side to point that out. Sure, it is. But does it matter? I don't think so. I was happy with Xorg, and there were things it couldn't do that I didn't plan on contributing, so I didn't complain to them. I am now happy with Wayland, and there are things it cannot do that I am not contributing, so I don't complain. What I see is that Wayland is quite active and they actually added things I neede…

> Linux is about diversity FreeBSD and even some Linux distros use boring technology™ that just works, thank you. I don't need breakage due to diversity , I need a stable OS that is reliable, works and doesn't crash.

How is that contradicting what I'm saying?

You want boring technology that works, there's certainly an open source distro for you. And there are open source distros for people who have different needs. "Diversity".

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#189
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAICT they were reviewed, but too leniently in light of his "improve the codebase" rhetoric. His recent drama and stirring has brought eyes from more senior members of the team, which realized his work was shotty and several changes being made were outright wrong or caused new bugs. More info here: https://www.phoronix.com/news/X.Org-Server-Lots-Of-Reverts

His recent drama and stirring has brought eyes from more senior members of the team that's what's bothering me. because someone misbehaves suddenly everything this person does receives more scrutiny. it should have received that scrutiny from the beginning. as should every other PR. the behavior or the character of a person should not affect how critical i review their code. that's discrimination. if this was a woman…

Realistically, any significant project can't do what you want. Linus cannot review every bit of code that enters the kernel, he delegates that task to trusted people. And they may themselves delegate further.

If something breaks or some external force appears, Linus may review the work of the delegates more closely than normal. And that's often when we get his most memorable rants, when he tells people he's putting trust in to stop disappointing him because they know better.

> The behavior or the character of a person should not affect how critical i review their code. that's discrimination. if this was a woman this reaction would be considered sexist.

What are you even talking about? That's not what happened.

Different reviewers, with higher standards for their project, who understand the code better are now looking. Their conclusion was "this code is awful and caused breaks".

They aren't reviewing it any different than other code.

Also, weird to bring up sexism. It is absolutely not the same to say I would refuse code from a Nazi apologist as to say I would refuse code from a woman.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#190
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His recent drama and stirring has brought eyes from more senior members of the team that's what's bothering me. because someone misbehaves suddenly everything this person does receives more scrutiny. it should have received that scrutiny from the beginning. as should every other PR. the behavior or the character of a person should not affect how critical i review their code. that's discrimination. if this was a woman…

Realistically, any significant project can't do what you want. Linus cannot review every bit of code that enters the kernel, he delegates that task to trusted people. And they may themselves delegate further. If something breaks or some external force appears, Linus may review the work of the delegates more closely than normal. And that's often when we get his most memorable rants, when he tells people he's putting t…

> The behavior or the character of a person should not affect how critical i review their code.

What are you even talking about? That's not what happened.

you said:

His recent drama and stirring has brought eyes from more senior members of the team

and that's my interpretation of that. did you mean something else? if i misunderstood you then i apologize.

It is absolutely not the same to say I would refuse code from a Nazi apologist as to say I would refuse code from a woman.

i disagree. especially if it is code that has already been accepted. besides, that's not what's happening here. the code is not summarily rejected. it is more critically scrutinized. and doing that is absolutely the same thing as more critically scrutinizing someones code because of their gender. so the nazi excuse doesn't work.

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