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East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

maxhertzberg.co.uk

181–190 of 256 posts

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you really believe that your fellow citizens can be easily influenced to undertake extreme actions by a twitter post, why not end democracy altogether? Since citizens are seemingly perpetual minors who lack agency over their actions. This is why all authoritarian regimes absolutely love hate speech laws.

> If you really believe that your fellow citizens can be easily influenced to undertake extreme actions by a twitter post so words have no capability of influencing people? Why speak at all if it can never change anyones opinion? See what happens when you do reduction to absurdity of any argument? But seriously, ask yourself: Is the entire ad industry a sham? Are state actors like the kremlin troll farms, the chinese…

Citizens are supposed to have critical thinking to distinguish what's right and wrong, what's true and false.

Freedom of speech allows to hear different views and apply this critical thinking. The problem is that you seem to know better and want to choose what's allowed and not allowed to say, given your political bias and contempt for your fellow citizens.

Last, democracy is not about empowering (what an empty word...) people, but about managing the various interest to end up with something that is acceptable. If a subgroup is being bullied, it is normal that it expresses its resentment. For instance, when white british people are being mass raped, and in some case, likely eaten[0], with no or little enforcement by the Police due to fear of being seen as "racists".

As a side note, all of the examples that you give are about reducing freedom of speech, so I don't really see your point. You could have cited the Weimar Republic, that had stringent hate speech laws, which did not prevent the access of the NSDAP to power.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Charlene_Do...

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#182
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That certainly doesn't meet the threshold for a credible threat. It's a despicable thing to say, and it seems like even she realized that when she calmed down and deleted it. But what's the basis for treating it as a crime?

It wasn’t prosecuted as a death threat, so it’s not really relevant whether or not the threat was credible. The relevant offense is inciting racial hatred.

Ok, so it is very much political. Similar principles are being used right now to punish supporters of Palestine under the guise of preventing anti-Semitism.

Brief expressions of anger after a mass killing don't justify imprisoning someone.

Edit: the enforcement is political, I mean. Basically, not all hate speech is treated equal, it depends on who the speech is about, and what concerns the government. In the US it was terrorism after 9/11 and opposition to Israel now. It sounds like in the UK right now it is anti-immigrant sentiment. At least in the US we have a strong First Amendment to protect us from the government policing our speech.

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#183
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You put hateful in quotes but I do want to point out that this is the tweet from the thing you linked: > Mass deportation now, set fire to all the f*** hotels full of the bastards for all I care …. I feel physically sick knowing what these families will now have to endure. If that makes me racist so be it

The context also needs to be noted. This was part of the social media storm that whipped up a wave of right-wing, racist hatred and violence in the wake of the Southport riots. No such waves of violence have sprung out of trans activism.

There is no "far right" or people being "whipped up". Disorder is a consequence of failed government policy.

E.g. from 2023: "Northern seaside town now a 'powder keg' over asylum seeker tensions"

"The tension in Skegness has grown after hundreds of migrants from the Middle East, Africa and Albania were crammed into former tourist hotels on the seafront."

"Cars have been vandalised, shop windows broken, mattresses set alight and scuffles reported between migrants and security staff. Officials say 229 asylum seekers are staying in up to seven hotels on and around the town’s promenade, but locals say the figure is more like 700."

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#184
„the grassroots opposition movements made the biggest contribution to the revolution that started in East Germany in autumn 1989“

That is a myth german people like to believe. In fact the real reason for the breakdown of communist east europe was that the governments of East Germany, Hungary, Poland, USSSR … were bankrupt:

https://www.deutschlandfunkkultur.de/grenzoeffnung-1989-schu...

As long as dictatorships are doing well economically, they will find ways and means to suppress uprisings. This makes effective economic sanctions, including harsh penalties for companies that do business with dictators, all the more important.

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hate speech laws are a very convenient tool for an authoritarian regime as their application is totally subjective. You could argue that saying "death to terfs" would mean only to end an ideology, but "death to Islam" would send you in prison as you are threatening muslims. In general, it's the same thing, but depending on the prevailing ideology, Police and courts can apply it selectively.

No, it's not the same thing at all, the same way saying "death to nazis" and "death to Germans" isn't the same thing. Being Muslim or a German is something you're generally born into because that's what your parents are, while the other two is something you actively choose to be a part of your identity as a full-grown adult. A random dude you meet named Ahmed doesn't automatically translate into "he hates all non-Mus…

Following your thinking, given that no one is born muslim (it's a religion, apostasy exists), it's ok to say "death to muslims", just as it is ok to say "death to terfs"? If you tell me that the muslim religion isn't discriminatory, I'd like you to do some wikipedia reading about it first. You can start with the status of women, for instance.

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#186
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn’t prosecuted as a death threat, so it’s not really relevant whether or not the threat was credible. The relevant offense is inciting racial hatred.

Ok, so it is very much political. Similar principles are being used right now to punish supporters of Palestine under the guise of preventing anti-Semitism. Brief expressions of anger after a mass killing don't justify imprisoning someone. Edit: the enforcement is political, I mean. Basically, not all hate speech is treated equal, it depends on who the speech is about, and what concerns the government. In the US it w…

The tweet was posted elsewhere in this thread. It doesn’t express any political view. It just says hateful stuff.

To your edit: If you’re making the comparison to anti-TERF “hate speech”, then it’s not treated equally because the law itself doesn’t treat racism on a par with anti-TERF sentiment. You can disagree with that, but it doesn’t show unequal policing of the law as-is.

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given how "hippie looking they/them" wanted to silence their political opponents in the past administration, it's kind of ironic how life comes back at you, fast? Also, kudos for the classist part assuming that I have never read a book.

> wanted to silence their political opponents in the past administration Literally when? Bezos bought a newspaper, Elon bought Twitter, Trump was on TV daily (and not being prosecuted by the DOJ), Ben Shapiro was again the most promoted video network in facebook, RFK was spreading misinformation left and right and is now telling the worls that autistic people can never pay taxes while Elon pays his salary. Like name…

I mean, we are coming out of a decade of cancel culture on campuses[0]. Elon Musk was clearly radicalized by it, which led him to buy Twitter.

Jordan Peterson's fame was partly due to him standing up in front of the obligation to use various pronouns at work, with the threat of getting fired.[1]

[0] https://archive.is/6zyUA

[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37875695

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you really believe that your fellow citizens can be easily influenced to undertake extreme actions by a twitter post so words have no capability of influencing people? Why speak at all if it can never change anyones opinion? See what happens when you do reduction to absurdity of any argument? But seriously, ask yourself: Is the entire ad industry a sham? Are state actors like the kremlin troll farms, the chinese…

Citizens are supposed to have critical thinking to distinguish what's right and wrong, what's true and false. Freedom of speech allows to hear different views and apply this critical thinking. The problem is that you seem to know better and want to choose what's allowed and not allowed to say, given your political bias and contempt for your fellow citizens. Last, democracy is not about empowering (what an empty word.…

> Citizens are supposed to have critical thinking

i wish someone didnt dismantle the education department of the federal goverment....

> Freedom of speech allows to hear different views and apply this critical thinking.

thats all well and good except it has never existed in the US, with countless examples of people being jailed for wrongthink it just happened that those people were all leftist. The second accountability crossed the aisle the uproar began. No one gave a shit when people were sent to jail for protesting Vietnam, or when the black panthers where jailed on terrorism charges but the second someone asked if Rupert murdoch should be held accountable for spreading lies for 30 years then it became a chest thumping issue.

> The problem is that you seem to know better and want to choose what's allowed and not allowed to say, given your political bias and contempt for your fellow citizens.

56% of americans cannot read past a 6th grade level. its not contempt, its pity

> democracy is not about empowering

Demos - people. Kratia - power. Gezz someone should tell the greeks they dont even know their language.

> but about managing the various interest to end up with something that is acceptable

that is not democracy, that is politics. Democracy is a form of politics, which has certain principles, like empowering the people (in liberal western democracy this is usually views that spawn from the french revolution, aka humanistic principles, education and voting and creating political groups to represent interests.

> If a subgroup is being bullied, it is normal that it expresses its resentment.

being bullied and FEELING they are bullied are different things, and certain personality disorders, education levels and religious views have a much larger overlap with those feelings. I personally do not care that a bunch of rich christians feel they are the butt of the joke, they have both monetary and political capital their feelings are literally not supported by reality. And arguing about their feelings is a pointless exercise in trying to explain to a entitled child why they are wrong.

> For instance, when white british people are being mass raped

not happening. Source: white british person.

> with no or little enforcement by the Police due to fear of being seen as "racists".

This is also not true. It is a literal talking point of Tommy Robinson, famous neo nazi, over the grooming gang that affected a small town in britain a few years ago.

i know YOU dont care, because you are just here to racist dogwhistle but I will explain the context for the people who might stumble upon your comment.

A small town in england had a serious problem, a group of men where grooming and hurting little girls. The police and local council were aware, however the town being small were scared that such a big scandal would tarnish their reputation. The police force, lacking funding and training fucked up the case beyond recognition and asked for support, the local council told them to keep it under wraps. A reporter a DECADE later brought the case up, as little girls were still being harmed. Due to how the justice works in the UK there is a media blackout (no one is allowed to report while a case is active) in this media blackout Tommy Robinson made up the unfounded lie that the police did not chase them due to fear of being called racist. Once the case was settled, a local council man (who was aware of the problem before it came to light) repeated Tommy Robinsons views as it exculpated him of letting little girls get hurt with his knowledge.

Other mass grooming cases with white perpetrators like the catholic schools in scotland case, reported by the same reporter and also decades long was somehow not national news in the same newspapers that reported the Tommy Robinson "fear of being racist" lines.

A neo nazi made up a lie, based on nothing and a council man who allowed the pain of minors in his council repeated it to not be accountable for his failings as a man. And now youre here a decade later, repeating it because you either know its false but want to spread hate, or dont know its fake and are contradicting your own claims that people are critical and can distinguish true and false.

> As a side note, all of the examples that you give are about reducing freedom of speech

by goverments bragging about their freedom of speech. You said countries who hate freedom of speech are the auth ones, I gave you examples of the country who uses the word freedom more than they use the word "the".

> which did not prevent the access of the NSDAP to power.

The big difference there is that Germany was an incredibly poor and unstable country. Syria is not haviing a civil war due to their freedom of speech laws, and neither did Germany. How free the press is in Sudan is not the reason they are being investigated by the UN for genocide.

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#189
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s just crazy. Were they ever a paying tenant and stopped paying. or just random stranger who broke in and decided they now lived there?

It was the neighbour whose house had burned down, and my mother let him move into our garden house (because winter was coming). They agreed to make a rental contract. But after he moved in, he refused to pay anything and since then it has been impossible to change that.

Thank you for explaining. It’s disheartening that this happened when trying to help that person.

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#190
post #141
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me google that for you: https://celebrity.nine.com.au/latest/jk-rowling-slams-transg... I'm just saying, I didn't even check before this comment. And who knew? bunch of death threats targeting Rowling with activists trying to make sure everyone can find her in meatspace in case the threat makes her quieten down. "Did she receive death threats" is really not the part of this to try and question. And if you want to…

Ok, so lots of sources that don’t show what was originally claimed (i.e. someone holding a placard at a recent protest in London calling for the death of JK Rowling). I don’t know why it irks you so much that people would fact check this particular claim. I agree that it’s not central to the original poster’s overall point, but it’s not ok to invent facts just because your argument could probably get by without them.

https://x.com/helenlewis/status/1913857239691006057

Some photos of the placards, including "Bring back witch burning ... JK" and "The only good TERF is a ____ one" with an image of a person being executed by hanging.

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