Live data from Hacker News

Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

thedrive.com

181–190 of 198 posts

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#181
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been since 3G that I delved into baseband specs in any depth, but I would not trust a powered up phone not to be commanded to connect to a network.

Couldn’t this easily be proven by monitoring transmission power from the device? There are all sorts of people who go on vacation and use the switch to avoid roaming charges. It would be plainly obvious to those people that their supposedly offline phone went online when they look at their bill. Or is there some secret apn bypass?

I ask this all the time but have yet to find anyone that has actually measured it. According to Snowden, basebands are still powered and operational even when the main application OS (android/ios/etc.) are shut down. And a non-removable battery sure doesn't help that. Plus, he also says that the baseband often has its own separate connections to the GPS, microphone and camera and can operate them without the application OS involved.

If the baseband is still powered, I can only assume it is simply sending (or responding to) periodic commands that do not require network authorization, which could possibly still let the network know where you are even without involving any roaming charges.

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#182
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern cars have their own internal GPS and cellular links. Even if they don't have mapping, it's probably still there, always on for tracking and compass bearing.

GPS is even used for automatic HVAC controls in some vehicles. A light sensor is used determine the amount of sunlight streaming and heating the interior. GPS data is used to help calculate the angle of the sun, and determine which areas are likely to be heated the most, and thus needs more cooling. A compass can be used to make it work even when the car is stationary (when GPS heading is unavailable). A singular int…

Got any sources?

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#183
post #89
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On late model Toyotas, pulling the fuse for the DCM (Data Communication Module - component that sends nonconsensual telemetry back to Toyota) also disables the car's bluetooth microphone and front right speaker. There is a procedure to disable the DCM and restore at least the speaker, but it involves partial disassembly of the dashboard.

> also disables the car's bluetooth microphone and front right speaker. That seems like a really small price to pay, honestly. I'd just install an aftermarket stereo and call it a day. Although I understand if others think that price is too hefty. We all decide for ourselves what we're willing to put up with.

> That seems like a really small price to pay, honestly. I'd just install an aftermarket stereo and call it a day.

The vast majority of the population cannot and will not do this.

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#184
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That’s a nice utopia but any uncontrolled power is ripe for abuse Agreed. In the current status quo, it is abused by car owners who get away with literal murder. > should cops be allowed to kick your door and search your home at any time because they think you’re a criminal? No, but my home is my private space; I'm not driving my home down a shared road. Compare and contrast the relatively lax requirements to get a…

> Compare and contrast the relatively lax requirements to get a driver's license with the incredibly stringent rules around getting a pilot's license And what is your argument? We should let the surveilance replace the driver exam? As in "you didn't speed this month, we'll let you keep your license" ?

Let the surveillance augment the driver's test. Because Lord knows we aren't spending more money on the test or retesting, but the surveillance is cheap.

> You didn't speed this month we'll let you keep your license

Honestly, why not? Professional drivers are monitored; let's extend that to every vehicle on the road.

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#185
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On late model Toyotas, pulling the fuse for the DCM (Data Communication Module - component that sends nonconsensual telemetry back to Toyota) also disables the car's bluetooth microphone and front right speaker. There is a procedure to disable the DCM and restore at least the speaker, but it involves partial disassembly of the dashboard.

So disconnect the antenna, and for bonus marks connect a dummy load in its place.

There is a procedure at the link below for doing just that. You disconnect leads for the cellular main, cellular sub, and GPS antennas from the DCM, and replace them with 50 ohm terminators. This avoids error codes and check engine light, and instead leaves the transponder in a perpetual "out of range" state.

https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/simpler-solution-for-dis...

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#186
post #29

My immediate question is whether this information will be used to raise your insurance rates like GM was caught doing.

Will be? No, it already is.

Just use our new app that doesn't eat and bleed GPS data and start saving today! Use it, or feel our wrath of e-mail guilt. You haven't activated it yet. Hello?

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#187
I retired from Chrysler corporation at 2018 as a 40-year technician working on cars I've learned one thing for sure you cannot get rid of all the antennas that's in that car for example the 2018 Chrysler 300 has five antennas in the interior and a central antenna control module that you press the button on to start the car which means if you deactivate all of the antennas you've deactivated the actual starting of the vehicle

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#188
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty hard to get into a vehicle collision if you can't start the vehicle.

Pretty easy to suffer some sort of injury if you're stranded and your car won't turn on.

Gotta be pretty low odds that an OnStar module breaks while someone is in a remote location, leaving them stranded - then they make it back, diagnose the issue, take the manufacturer to court, the court finds the manufacturer guilty, and the punishment is substantial enough to outweigh the benefit of requiring the module in the first place.

Even if you could hold the manufacturers liable, I'm guessing most of them would still take that risk.

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#189
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GPS is even used for automatic HVAC controls in some vehicles. A light sensor is used determine the amount of sunlight streaming and heating the interior. GPS data is used to help calculate the angle of the sun, and determine which areas are likely to be heated the most, and thus needs more cooling. A compass can be used to make it work even when the car is stationary (when GPS heading is unavailable). A singular int…

Got any sources?

What I have is this:

The Honda factory service manual for my 2007 Odyssey touches on these operations, including diagnosing issues. It does not have an ISBN number that I can find.

These systems (multi-zone HVAC, navigation) seem to have been introduced in MY 2004, remaining mostly unchanged until MY 2008 when (at least) the navigation was facelifted and the rear HVAC zone became more autonomous.

Anyway, within volume 2 of that manual is this passage:

i-Dual Zone and i-Tri Zone Climate Control system (With navigation system) The "i-Dual zone" climate control system automatically controls the temperature and the vent mode of the air direction to the driver's and passenger's side, depending on the angle of the sun, and the direction of the vehicle. It calculates information such as date, time, longitude, and latitude from the navigation system, as well as the radiant strength of the sun from the sunlight sensor, to determine the appropriate mode position and temperature to be directed to each side. The "i-Tri zone" climate control system is an addition of the automatic controls with the temperature and the vent mode of the air direction to the rear section to the "i-Dual zone" climate control system.

...and if I'd read something like that in 2004 (or in 2007), I simply wouldn't have believed it. Even now in 2024 it seems either a bit far-fetched or blatantly obvious, with very little middle-ground -- especially for a vehicle that can't even turn its own headlights on and off or adjust dash lighting intensity based on apparent daylight conditions (as Chevy and BMW were variously doing over a decade prior).

(Other parts of the Honda manual describe the in-car temperature sensor.)

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The interstate also has “traffic counters” which pick up unique bluetooth IDs that are broadcast from each car’s center console infotainment system. There’s a shocking number of ways to track a person in their vehicle before we even get down to the license plate. If most people here on HN don’t know about them, the general public is obviously completely unaware. https://tti.tamu.edu/researcher/now-taking-it-to-the-st…

Now if only this data could be used as an alibi in court. Sorry your honor, your government's own data proves I could not have been at Jimmy's house where this crime took place.

I don't think there's any reason it couldn't be introduced as evidence.
Post reply on HN